Krieghoff E2 proof?
 

Going to admit to some abysmal ignorance here with this question, but are the horizonal crown N's on the right side of the receiver and frame rail of an early Krieghoff rework considered the "E2" proof, or is that a different stamping altogether and if so, where would it normally be located?

The c/N is the Commercial (civilian) German power-proof. The eagle/2 is an inspector's mark which can show up on many of the individual parts of a Krieghoff Luger.

--Dwight

Hi Dwight,
Been out of pocket for a few days, but appreciate the reply. It has been my understanding that the horizonal crown N's on right side of receiver and frame rail indicated an early Krieghoff proof stamp as noted on proof marking #4 on the technical info data page. Having only a couple of Lugers in my weapons collection, I need all the info I can get on these little beauties so appreciate the input. Anyplace I can go to see what the E2 inspectors mark looks like?

Eagle 2
 

Hi Walt,

Go into Member Gallery to my 1943 rig; John D took a super crisp photo of thge eagle 2.

Tom A

Walt,

If you are collecting in the HK world, the Gibson book is a must (until John Dunkle puts his out...;) ). Simpson's has them on their site for $ 60...

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...products_id=33

Tom's photo :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hk_e2.jpg

Thanks Pete; I couldn't figger out how to do that.

No surprise there, huh?

Tom A.

Now that is a great picture! Unfortunately, the one following is the best I can do with my little 2 mp Kodak, but hopefully, it will get the idea across.
As shown (barely and sort of) my double date police has the horizonal crown N's on the right side of the receiver and frame rail and I understand that only Krieghoff reworks were stamped with these markings in this location. However, there are no E2 inspector stamps on this piece. Bottom line question, is this a Krieghoff or not?

Walt,

Your gun *may* be a DWM that was re-worked by Krieghoff; the rear of the frame would have H Krieghoff Suhl stamped into it; I can't make out the smaller stamps on your shot. Maybe EL/2; maybe not.

Tom A

Tom,
Will try to get a larger picture. The two smaller stamps on receiver and frame are horizonal crown N's as shown in #4 of the markings section of the technical info page of the forum noting the old placement of the commercial proof and that Krieghoff used a similar but smaller design. It is indeed a DMW, and bares no other Krieghoff markings, but does have these small horizonal crown N's on the right side of the barrel and breech block. No E/2 markings anywhere.

Walt,

What is the chamber date, and what is the serial number of the gun with suffix?

--Dwight

Hi Walt,

Based on the horizontal C/Ns and the other Imperial Army proofs, I suggest that it is reasonable for one to assume that you have a re-worked W.W.I Army that was sold into commercial market. There were hundreds of thousands of these re-works. The fact that it is not stamped "germany" would lead one to believe it was not intended for the American market.

Tom A.

Hello Dwight and Tom,
Chamber date is 1917/1920, serial #9414b, police marked for Dresden as S.P.D. Went through this to some degree back about 5 years ago with several members of the forum including Tom H., Ted, a fine gentleman, Bill M. who is apparently no longer in the group, and a phone call to Jan in Alaska. General consensis was that it was an early Krieghoff rework due to the placement of the crown N's on the right frame rail. However, at that time, I was unaware of the Krieghoff E/2 stamp so, without it, am trying to get verification as to whether or not this can be a Krieghoff. Guess the question is did they use the E/2 stamp on all their reworks or, on their early work, using the smaller version of the commercail crown N as a proof mark, did they not use it? Greatly appreciate all your help.

FYI: BIll M.
 

Walt,

"Bill M." is still an active member of the Lugerforum... "Bill M." was his user name under the "old" forum software format... under this new format, his user name is "MauserLugers"

I have an early krieghoff re-work of a DWM; will throw the loupe on it tonight and get back to you.

Tom A

Thanks for all the help, Tom. On many things, from real estate to aviation and military history, I'm extremely knowledgeable, but with only 2 lugers in my weapons collection, I'm still a babe in the woods although I've followed the goings on of the forum for the past 5 or 6 years. If the Bill M. I mentioned is the gentlemen who used an E-mail address of blackfoot.net, I owe him a debt of gratitude for all the time he put in on pieceing together the history of this gun based on it being a Krieghoff rework as the possibility exists it went through 3 reworks from DMW to Krieghoff to police.
Didn't know when I stumbled over the Luger in the garage sale a few months back I'd get so tied up into this again. Luger collecting has got to be like a virus that never quites gets out of the blood.

Walt, yes that is the same Bill, he is very ready to share knowledge, has a nice collection and is a friend of mine.

Ed

Can you tell me what you see on the LEFT SIDE of the reciever? I'm not certain what you believe is correct, as of yet.

Thanks.

John D.

I don't believe it is. HK was very precise about the placement and type of stamp they put on their re-works.

I could be wrong - but I'm not certain I am - well, "yet"....

John

Hi John,
Left side simply has the serial on the receiver, the normal double digets on trigger plate, locking bolt etc., and the imperial eagle on the side of the breech block. All horizonal crown N's are on the right, receiver preceeding the inspectiors mark, directly below on the frame rail, right side of barrel and top right of breech block. Good to hear Bill is still active in this. We exchanged many Emails over this thing years back and he devoted much time to working this over. A true gentleman who gave of his knowledge and information patiently working with me through every idea or conclusion I came up with regarding this Lugers history.

Gave mine a quick look over. It has the vertical C/N on the left and is GERMANY marked on the right; Krieghoff marked on rear of the frame. No similarities with your gun; wish i cudda been of more help.

Tom A.

Paging through "Weimar Lugers" and "Third Reich Lugers" is unavailing. Costanzo only notes that c/N can be found several different places on a Luger, including the right frame rail. He did -not- document it on the right receiver.

On a partly remembered hunch I pulled out my Simson rework of a DWM First Issue; it has a c/N upright on the right frame by the takedown lever, another position Costanzo does not document.

I'm not sure what this adds to the discussion or means, except that you have quite a mystery here.

--Dwight

Appreciate all the effort. Simpson has a DMW/Krieghoff rework on their site that is marked sold that is much like mine, citing the right side receiver horizonal crown N but also notating the E/2 stamp, which I don't seem to have. The Luger curse strikes again but guess this is what sets these beauties apart from all other hand guns and makes them so interesting to get involved with. Thanks again.

Hi Guys....

We are getting "really lost" here - by "munging together" (my word ;) ) several HK variations.. Let me try to explain....

HK reworked many types - the majority were DWM Lugers in the "i" range. These "reworks" are very different then their "commercial" series.. OK - so let's put aside their "commercial series" for a moment and focus on their "reworks".

These will have a CROWN N, again - on either the left side of the receiver only (for a vertical CROWN N) or 2 CROWN Ns if they were horizontal (on on the left of the rail and one on the left of the receiver). Some "reworks" may also have the original toggle and NOT have *any* CROWN N, and may have an encircled HK and/or other stampings...

With me so far?? :eek:

Now - what Simpsons sold is NOT what Walt has - and the two are very different..

What Simpson's has: Some reworks will also have an E/2 on the RIGHT side of the receiver - but that is NOT a CROWN N (which, on the HK on Simpson's site) the CROWN N again - appears on the LEFT side of the reciever and rail (and since it is horizontal, BOTH rail & reciever have the CROWN N..). In fact with both the CROWN N and the E/2, Simpsons does have a fairly rare rework variation...

What Walt has: I'm not sure yet??! ;)

Anyway - I hope this helps!!

John D.

John,
"munging together" Pretty much makes sense to me; but then I've got Polish blood in me.
Tom

Isn't the Internet a wonderful place?? I think I actually found a definition for "munging"...

Ready?? "The term munging probably derives from the acronym mung (pronounced just as it looks), which stands for "mash until no good."" Now - I've never met any mash I didn't like, so I'm not certain that definition is quite correct...

;)

Heh!

John D.

John,
Think "munging" says it all. FYI. back in 2000, I blew ten bucks and sent a "firearms inquiry" to the folks at Blue Book concerning this gun. It went nowhere and they gave up on it. Strangely enough, however, I found one gentleman with an identical piece after kicking it around through dealers all over the country, and he turned out to be a new collector with his first Luger who had just signed on to the forum. If Rick K. is still around, he has a virtual twin to mine, except his is a 1916 double date and mine is 1917.
Several of the dealer inquiries resulted in E-mails accusing me of trying to play games with a fraudulent piece. It cameas a relief to meet Rick and find a matching gun. Thanks for all the effort on this.

Among Army aviators in Asia, mung was the mystical substance resulting from monkey miscarriages...normally used to describe a particularly foul concoction served up at a well lubricated hooch party.

Tom A

Hi Walt.!

It's a pleasure. Can you do me a favor and take a micrometer and measure the Crown N? I want the exact overall "height and width" in millimeters, when you have a moment.....

Umm... Tom???

This is FAR TOO much information!!! :eek:

:cheers:

John D.

John,
Alas, I must admit that in living in a home for over 30 years that I thought had acquired every conceivable usefull or useless object known to mankind, there is not a micrometer in the house. However, using my trusty millimeter ruler that has served me well for many years of stamp collecting, what I am getting is a width of 1 millimeter and a hight, from bottom of the N to the tip of the crown, of 4 millimeters. Much appreciation for all the time and effort you're putting into this.

Hmmm - apparently - you haven't met my ex-wife.... ;)

Seriously though.....

I believe you have a DWM Crown N rather then a Krieghoff "Crown N" - which would explain as well, why it is mis-struck for Krieghoff (on your right side) and as I stated above. Unfortunately - I do not have the source nor the reasons as to the origins of your DWM Luger - which began life as a Military and then made it into the commercial world.

Hope this helps!

John D.

What-ever and why-for, just another example of the wonderful world of Lugers, John. Thanks much for all the time you put into this thing.

Walt

Hi Walt!

My sincerest Thanks right back to you... While I love Krieghoffs and have been in that world for more than a few years - I'm still learning about all the various Luger variations outside HK...

Yep - it's about this wonderful world of Lugers and collecting...

My thanks again!

:cheers:

John