1906 Russian Luger on GunBroker
 

Well there has been no discussion regarding the 1906 Russian Luger on Gunbroker so I will start one.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=34556290

Lotsa moola for this gun but the Russian Luger has always fascinated me But the prices have always scared me off (to speak nothing about my fear of all really rare and expensive Lugers). But if Pete can start some good discussions, so can I.
Big Norm :typing:

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What happens if you get scared half to death twice? :confused:

$10,000, that isn't liable to sell, at least not without looking it over close. Plus, some proof of being "Mel's"...


Ed

Not to long ago, I think on ebay, I saw a barreled upper go off. Would really watch this one. I figured another would show up in the future.No serial listed, vague on where it came from. May be good one, but would beware if I were to buy! John

may be I make a mistake
It is say it was for the russian army
it's a civil firearm for officer and not a militarian item
sorry for my english

This seller is trying to move his whole collection. This Russian and a number of his other exotics, as I recall, came from one dealer. A very high profile dealer in fact...almost celebrity status what with TV appearances, etc.

Russian 1906 Lugers ARE rare! There is not much written about them. Nothing about them is in Stills "Luger triad", not even a listing on the commercial page in Imperial Lugers. The only thing I found is on page 239 of Walter's Luger Book. He believes they might have been for Czarist Officers and not an official Russian government issue due to the lack of the "Provnaya Kommisiya" proofmark. Also he mentions the lack of bayonets on the crossed Mosin-Nagant rifles as seen on the "authentic" FN-Brownings. It's a fascinating mystery. I have read that since the fall of the Soviet Union, that more of these might be surfacing, but the few that have been seen are either chrome plated or in poor condition. As for "Mel's" collection, I was lucky to acquire a "41" dated Mauser commercial with two matching magazines in near 100% condition at a past Reno show that had provenence from many "experts". He was known to have good stuff and I don't see any reason NOT to believe that this Russian example is totally authentic. I think the gripe here is with the price. Take a look at the recent web sites of several of the on-line dealers...we are seeing "Lugerflation". This is hot on the heels of "Coltflation".

Anyone know who the seller is?

Tom A.

I have spoken with him and a friend in NC has met up with him. I would be very reluctant to buy this pistol even using Tom's money.

Photos from the G-B auction ad :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/russian_1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/russian_2.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/russian_3.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/russian_4.jpg

Same seller's other offering...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=34558828

There's NOTHING wrong with this Russian 1906! If anyone values Mike Krause's opinions (He who has had almost 50 years of Luger experience in all facets of the hobby [collecting..manufacturing]), I brought up these photos on his computer and he says it's absolutely righteous. He has owned at least two of these over the years. He does comment that the price is kind of high. He would value it (as seen second hand only) at $7-9K, which I feel is on the conservative side.

By the way, Mike Krause also thinks the Portuguese is righteous, but valued about $1K more than he would sell it at.

I stand by my earlier statement.

Once I had a chance to buy a Russian Luger from a reliable dealer for $8000. But the gun was restored so I backed off. Its really tough to have a real expert go over a really RARE Luger because experts who really know the guns are so rare themselves. Another problem is that when I try to sell one of those rare lugers. It is hard to find someone who understands that a rare Luger will be pricey. There are experts out there but they are scattered all over the USA. Hard to find when you need them.

drbuster,
you are right about Lugerflation. I recently saw a sale on the internet where there were some very nice model 1914 navies for sale. They were generally priced at $3500+. One went for $4200 and I was shocked. The guys current sale has model 1914 navies priced at $5000. GAG!!! Now these navies are nice and have matching mags. But...$5000?

Your comment about Walters book is also right on the money. When I am relaxed with an adult beverage at hand and my shoes off, I frequently read that book. Hard to figure out at first, but loaded with useful information. Right up there with Jan Stills books (maybe a tad higher in my humble and frequently challenged opinion).

George Arnderson,
I have only gone to the Chantilly show once. The one that I met you at. But if you are talking about the same guy that I am thinking of... I absolutely, 100%, hands down, dead nuts agree with you. If the other dealer that you described is also the one that I am thinking about then I also agree with you, even though I like him and once even bought a gun off of him. But if I was using Tom A's money, then I might have a bit more courage.

To all,
if we are talking about the same "Mel" that I think has been touched on in other discussions on this forum, then who made him an expert? He had lotsa money because of his great talent. But there are lotsa people out there who have a bunch of money that I wouldn't buy ANYTHING off off. Celebreties are known for their talent and not necessarily for their intelligence.

But this Russian Luger does look pretty good in the limited pictures. I sent an email to the seller requesting more close-up pictures, but I still haven't received a reply.
Big Norm

Dear Big Norm, I agree that "Mel" was no expert, but with the big bucks, he allegedly dealt with "experts". Many entertainers are, or have bought, collectible Lugers over the years (Mel Torme, Buddy Hackett, Sammy Davis Jr., Dan Dailey, James Earl Jones, etc...the list goes on). I have been told that they did not lose money. Recently, prices have just shot out of sight, much like what is happening in the housing market. As long as there are buyers out there buying limited inventory, prices have to go up. And with the stock market no great shakes over the past few years, investment money is finding its way into collectibles. How much should a rare Luger sell for? That 1904 Navy went for just over $63K on the recent Rock Island auction. Mike Krause sold that exact same Luger about 20 years ago for $20K. When one gets into the "rare" Lugers, just like the Pattersons and Dragoons, money wants to be made. Not for the feint of heart. Another way to say it: Buyer beware and know your seller!

Lots of lugers beind sold with the story of being in the Mel Torme and even the Pat Redmond collection; as of late.

Without some paperwork proving the previous owner's ownership (i.e. sales receipt with the infamous person's name or insurance declaration, etc.) and a record of the actual serial number...well then...it is just a "story"...

Don't forget that fellow on Jan Still's gunboard a few months back trying to match up (with a consecutive numbered luger) and inflate the value of a M1900 commercial claimed to be the "Eastman" luger.

All,

The recent death of my Mother left me with a nice cash legacy. I promptly invested 25% of it in very rare Lugers. I am confident I will outpace the stock market easily.

I bought the very highest quality and rarity I could find and have had not 1 nono-second of buyer's remorse.

Tom A.

I believe that one of Mr Torme's major sources for his collection was also the final outlet for a large part of the the collection. This same source is.....never mind.

George,

What is more tragic than this fellow finding out he does not have what he thought it has...is after a few other collectors have looked over his stuff and told him the bad news...he is still trying to pass these off to the next unfortunate collector...at top dollar...:(

Oh well, I guess this comes in the catagory of the sellers father or grandfather taking the Luger off of a dead German general dring WW1 or WW2. Sales talk (lying) can sucker in a lot of guys.

drbuster,
I thought that Buddy Hackett was a sword collector. I also thought that the only thing that Sammy Davis Jr. collected was very beautiful women.But I stand by my qualified statement that "Celebreties are known for their talent and NOT NECESSARILY for their intelligence". For instance, I don't think that I would buy a Luger or anything else off of Brittany Spears.But there are some celebrety stars who did make very intelligent investments. Randolph Scott, a pre John Wayne movie hero, used his movie money to buy a considerable amount of land in the San Bernadino Valley, News papers erroneously labeled him as a real estate salesman in his later years. Actually, he was selling off his own property at a considerable profit.

I don't know who was making the 1904 navies in the 70's. I do know that the early ones were a bit inaccurate. But the later ones were pretty good counterfeits. I thought (and can be wrong) that Krause had to put his name on the toggle because DWM was copywrite protected. I hold great disgust for people who make EXACT copies of collectors items in any arena for the purpose of cheating the unsuspecting.I don't care if they have one year of experience or 50 years of experience. But some jerks seem to take pride in cheating people.
Big Norm

Hi again, Big Norm. Ralph Shattuck has told me how he sold "many" lugers both to Buddy Hackett and Sammy Davis, Jr. Buddy Hackett mainly collected Colts but had several "rare" (whatever that means!) Lugers. You are right about Mike Krause's "K" on the toggle, but I don't think the survivor of the DWM company would have sued. He has never sold his .45 Lugers as "originals" and has been up front all the time. He just put into practice his considerable machining skills he learned from his father into a pistol that fascinated him. If you have ever had the experience of holding and examining one of these .45 Lugers, you would be very impressed at the fit and finish...probably it is BETTER than the original.

I actually had in mind THE 1904 navy and not the .45 cal Luger. Therer have been numerous fraudulent copies of the 1904 navy which has got DWM on it and their have been numerous people taken in by the counterfeits for big money.

Then there is John Martz there is a guy who will produce Luger replicas in just about any caliber that you would want and you wil never ever hear me criticize that wonderful gentleman. I talked to him once over the phone and was truely impressed by his personality. His guns sell for big money but people are not taken in by his product because I don't think anybody would think that DWM ever produced a 38 cal Luger. Plus John has a patent on a safety that he perfected on his guns.

I have never met or talked to Mr Krause. I only know of him through one of my books. If memory serves me right, he was not allowed to use DWM on his toggle.
Big Norm

Thanks for clearing up that slight misunderstanding, Big Norm. Actually, these days, with the high costs of tooling, etc., one would probably have to "invest" quite a bit of money to exactly copy an authentic 1904 Navy. Not having a real one to measure, make casts, etc., it is certain that many mistakes would be made that SHOULD be obvious to advanced collectors. In my humble opinion, one would have to start with a commercial Luger, or the like, and add the barrel, rear sight, etc. All this should be easily spotted. Of interest, Mike Krause seriously thought of making copies of the B-L#5 he possessed for a short time, but even with his machinery already in place, he wouldn't be able to sell it for under $35K. Who would want to spend that kind of money for a copy?

drbuster,
The reason that I am a bit finicky is that I almost bought what I thought was a 1904 navy. The forum saved me a LOT OF MONEY by clearly telling me what to look for on the fakes. A guy wanted to sell me one and when I showed him what the forum told me, he was heart broken. He had the gun for a long time and truely believed that it was authentic. I am still friends with him.

Simpson had one for sale at about the same time for, I think in the $30,000+ range, maybe even higher. But Simson specified that the rabbit ears were small (that is one of the things that you look for on an authentic 1904 navy). This along with my almost purchasing one started a neat discussion on these navies over this forum. I don't know if Simpson's navy was fake or real but I LOVE this forum for saving me a lot of money and heart ache on the one that I almost bought. But someone bought that gun off of Simpson. Its downright embarressing to pay serious money for a counterfeit. As for me, I decided to become more than just a handsome hunk of red blooded American manhood by studying Lugers more before I buy a rare and very expensive Luger.
Big Norm

Big Norm, I remember that discussion well....a major learning session for us all!

The '04 Simpsons had for consignment sales was the one Mike Morris was trying to sell. It went back to Mike and I think Tom A. bought it...not for $ 30K...:cheers:

Mike had it at Tulsa and let Ron Wood and I look her over before it was finally sold.

Pete,
thanks, but I don't know Mike but I do know that ol' Tommy is a big boy and knows his stuff. The gun that I almost bought had a price tag of $8,000 (not as large as Simpsons price, but big enough for a struggling kid like me from the Ghettoes of Detroit). I just took a SWAG at what Simpsons old price was. But the disparity of prices did set some alarms off in my tiny brain and this forum did set some bells off up there. Now where were those bells when I bought some other stuff?
Big Norm