Unusual Rear Toggle Link - MYSTERY SOLVED
 

Can anyone identify this type rear toggle link?

Thanks,
Luke

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...oggle_link.jpg

Strictly a hunch Luke... but because of the type of knurling on the toggle knobs, and a dull military rather than a high polish commercial finish, I would have to say that this looks a Swiss Luger toggle to me...

Anyone got any other ideas???

If the knob center hole is campfered as they appear, it is a Krieghoff piece; if they are not, I don't have a clue

Tom A

Tom -

The knob center holes are cleanly chamfered on both sides.

Interesting that is is a Krieghoff. That's the last thing I would have suspected, but I have zero experience with Krieghoffs.

The part has no proof marks, inspector stamps, or serial numbers that I can find.

Thanks.

Luke

Luke,

I am not convinced it is an HK part...adding a chamfer in the holes would be easy enough to do.

Where are the parallel lines running down the sides of the "knobs" on this piece...???

See this photo that John D. posted of his 1938 HK in the Member's Gallery :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1938_hk_knob.jpg

The lack of that knurling on the sides was the basis of my guess that the toggle was Swiss in origin... and not Krieghoff...

Pete, can you post a similar photo to Luke's of a Swiss made representative toggle?

thanks...

Hi John,

No dicing/knurling at all on M1929 Bern toggles...smooth as a baby's behind :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/29bern5.jpg

The M1906/24 W+F Bern is just like the DWM knobs :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bern24.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bern11.jpg

Luke...

My guess..maybe a Sarco, Inc. replacement part...???

or maybe even an East German replacement Part?

I sent Tom Heller a picture of this link, and he suggested that it was probably from a post-war Mauser. Tom is always right about these things, but I wondered if - possibly - there might be another Luger type where they were used. I can't find a picture like this in my Luger library, but I am still looking.

Luke

Luke:

Some Mauser Parabellums' 29/70 had a similar toggle although the one
I have is not chamfered.

Regards Ken D

Ken -

Do you have a detailed top-view picture of your Parabellum?

Thanks,
Luke

Luke:

Sorry I have an old computer operating on windows 95 with no
picture capability. Picture in" LUGER" by John Walter, page 132, but not
very clear.

Regards Ken D

Hi,

The 1972 version I have indeed lacks the stripes but does have a small line running parallel to the toggle ring sides, just where on an original the lines would stop. The center holes are straight.

So it doesn't quite match the toggle piece shown by Luke.

Hello Gerben,

Thank you. I have found the toggle you describe in some of my books, but have been unable to find a picture of the type I displayed in this string.

This must be a RARE and, therefore, extremely valuable part . . . not. :)

Luke

Hello Ken D - - -

Thanks anyway. As it turns out, that's the one Walter book I don't have.
As I mentioned in my reply to Gerben, I have found some pictures, but they all have a fine line where the original "checkering" would have ended. This part does not have that fine line.

Still a mystery.

Regards,
Luke

Gerben, If your toggle has a hole on top for an axel retaining pin, it is proably DDR production. If not, it is probably for a Mauser Parabellum, as the M29 Swiss, which are similar, usually bear the full serial number of the gun and a Swiss proof. The DDr rear links also have finer checkering (5 lines below the hole, as only 3 lines on the Parabellum) than the post war Mausers. Tom

Hi Tom,

It's not my toggle :)

Interesting that you mention DDR reproduction toggle pieces. Never realized they also produced completely new parts, apart from the barrels and springs.

A German-proofed Mauser Parabellum would indeed have a proof mark on the top of the rear toggle.

Could the piece pictured be a scandinavian produced spare part? Both the Finnish and the Norwegian army were longtime P08 users and might have had spare parts produced?

Gerben,

That is an interesting question.

We know that the Finns produced barrels. sights, and grips for the Luger. Could it be that they manufactured other spare parts?

My reservation would be that the rear toggle link is a part seldom broken or lost, so it seems unlikely that the Finns found it necessary to produce these.

Luke

Luke, if you have it, check pages 37 and 38 of Gibson's "The Kreighoff Parabellum". The impression I get from his discussion of the rear toggles is that the chamfer, or countersink, in the toggle hole is limited to the Kreighoff manufactureing process. Page 38 also has photos of different toggles.

Herb, Remember that the DDR PO8 parts were made at the Thalmann plant in Suhl probably on the WW2 KH machinery. I doubt that the Finns or Norweigens made much in the way of PO8 parts, as I've found both Swiss and Mauser Parabellum parts used as repacement on imports from Scandahovia. TH

Hello Herb -

Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, I haven't bought a copy of Gibson's book, and I think they are out of print. Tom Heller has commented that much good information is available in the book outside of the Kreighoff material. I'll have to look for a reasonably priced copy.

Anyone have a spare for sale?

Thanks,
Luke

Tom,

You got a good point there. Interesting to see Ikea-lugers with Swiss replacement parts :)

Luke, I found two of them but both were right in the $150 range, it's a great book but I'm not sure it's worth that much, I think I got mine a couple of years back for $75.

Thanks, Herb.

I found one listed for $85.00 but have not been able to get a response from the seller yet. I'm guessing it might be gone already.

I agree; $150 is a bit steep.

Regards,
Luke

MYSTERY SOLVED
 

This is probably of interest to few if any of the contributors to this string, but I thought I would close out the subject by documenting my final observations.

As it turns out, this is very likely a standard DWM rear toggle link which has been - very skillfully - altered by some previous owner. Don't know, but I suspect that the knobs were turned smooth on a lathe and then polished.

Probably the alteration was made in Finland, as the person from whom I bought the gun was unaware of this unusual characteristic of the toggle, apparently had not even noticed the difference, and I am pretty sure that he bought this piece from the importer.

By pure accident I discovered that, under close inspection and using good lighting, it is possible to see barely discernable lines where the original lateral knurling lines were folded over the ends of the knobs. The result leaves the rear toggle link with readily observable checkering only on the ends of the knobs. See the picture in my first post on this subject. These barely discernable lines are so faint that they cannot be seen under normal observation conditions. The job was so skillfully done as to make the part appear to have been manufactured that way.

Thanks much for all your comments on the subject.

I will leave the toggle link with the gun, as I suspect it has been on this Luger for a long time.

HK book for $ 85...item # 2853 on this web page listing :

http://www.wwiibooks.com/weapons.html

Hi Pete,

Fortunately, I already found a copy and bought it.

Thanks for remembering me.

Regards,
Luke