Need Vickers mag
 

Many of you may remember that I was able to acquire a very nice '06 Vickers some months ago. I recently found out that there was a special magazine for the DWM Dutch. If there is a special mag for the Vickers, I would like to have one as this guns magazine is just a plain wooden bottom............any help????

Dear P. J., According to The Dutch Luger, by Martens & de Vries, page 215, a wooden unmarked magazine bottom ("just plain") was indeed correct for the Vickers Luger, and other Dutch lugers as well.

I don't have my Martens book Doc, PJ is talking about the "special" dutch modified ones, they were reinforced. Is the wooden unmarked also correct... as is the reinforced one?

Ed

Dutch magazine design went through a series of transitions. The earliest version had the wooden base retained by a small spring clip. This was to facilitate removal of the base for cleaning the magazine. Unfortunately the spring clip tended to weaken over time resulting in the base coming loose during firing...most embarrassing. A field modification was made by drilling the magazine body and base with a transverse hole and installing a pin at the toe of the base (i.e. the side opposite the spring clip). Therefore this version of magazine had both the spring clip and the pin. Eventually, newly made magazines dispensed with the spring clip and were configured with one pin in the manner we are used to seeing Luger magazines. As Dutch magazines were not numbered to the gun, any version of the magazine is correct for a Dutch Luger. Unmodified early magazines are tough to find and are a nice accessory, particularly for a first contract Dutch.

PJ,

Two photos of my KOL magazine...reinforced type...sorry about the bad photo quality...these are all I have on my laptop with me :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/peteskol9..jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...l11a_copy1.jpg

I was away at fence building duties yesterday. Wife sold most of the cows, how come I am still building fence???? Anyway, Ron, I will assume that the Vickers, being a 'later' gun than the first DWMs, would never have had the 'spring clip' magazine?????? It is so much handier when the mags are numbered to the guns.......no question as to which type is correct. Pete, Not sure if I know the meaning of 'KOL'. If this mag is correct for 'KOL', is it not correct for Vickers??????? I have concluded that I want a magazine of the type in Petes pictures regardless...... I will then pursue the gun to go with it......call it incentive!!!!

Sorry PJ...

I should have written "my Dutch magazine for my 1928 KOL Dutch luger"...

l know a little something about the magazine w/out a luger trick. I have been holding the nicest early Erfurt magazine for 2 years just waiting for the right 1911 Erfurt luger (..at the right price, of course...). Even have a correct holster and a TD tool, too...

P.J.

Actually, Vickers isnâ??t really a â??laterâ?� gun. The first contract for Dutch Lugers was with DWM in 1911, consequently the Dutch model designation for their Luger is â??M11â?�. The Vickers contract was the next contract in 1919. The next contract did not occur until 1927 and was with BKIW. Since the Vickers contract was for the East Indies (and possibly a few for the West Indies) it is likely the magazines were of the spring catch type. The modification to add a pin was started around 1927. As I posted earlier, any of the three types is â??correctâ?� for a Dutch Luger.

With regard to the meaning of â??KOLâ?�, it was originally thought that the KL in a circle represented â??Koninklijke Luchmachtâ?�, or Royal Air Force. However, referring to KOL Lugers as â??Dutch Air Forceâ?� is a misnomer. These Lugers were the DWM/BKIW contract with delivery starting in 1928. The â??Royalâ?� prefix for Dutch weapons did not come about until the late 1930â??s. Also, in 1928 the Dutch air force was still a part of the army, like the US Air Force was originally the US Army Air Corps before it became a separate branch. Therefore the designation of â??Dutch Air Forceâ?� cannot be correct.

The most current and best reference for Dutch Lugers is the aforementioned â??The Dutch Luger (Parabellum) A Complete Historyâ?� by Bas Martens and Guus de Vries. They state that unfortunately there is no documentary evidence remaining for the meaning of the KL in a circle. However, they believe that the most likely answer is that it should be read as â??KOLâ?� and probably indicates â??Koloni�«nâ?� or â??coloniesâ?� since the Lugers were destined for and employed in colonies in the Dutch East Indies and would therefore be issued to ground units. This notion is reinforced by the fact that Peteâ??s KOL Luger is unit marked to an Infantry Battalion!

If you have a genuine interest in Dutch Lugers, the Martens & de Vries book is an absolute â??must haveâ?� item.

Hi Ron,

Excellent information. It's interesting to know that as of 1928, the Department of Colonies or 'Departement der Kolonien' became the leading organisation when it came to colonial matters. Before 1928 pistols were marked with the Queen Wilhelmina crown-W.

My Dutch DWM 1913/1928 mismatch came with a nickle 2nd model woodbottom magazine (without spring clip and only one attaching pin) and a blued woodbottom magazine, also clipless and one pin. The blued woodbottom is similar to Portuguese ones.

I agree that either magazine is correct for a KOL.

On a previous occasion, I instituted consider discussion about my particular Vickers in that it appears never to have been reworked, having seen several others that have been. I realize that sans first hand examination by more than one experienced hand in this field (does the 'other' fellow from Alaska qualify?????), and their subsequent comment, that my gun may qualify for 'Officer procurement' as I understand they had to buy their own????????? This gun shows little use and too much wear in the correct spots for a booster to have done anything. On this assumption, would it ever had been where the spring-clip magazines were the order of the day??????? Where can the Dutch Luger book be obtained??????? I had drawn the conclusion that it might be out of print since there have been several referances to it but no supplier was ever mentioned...................since this may be the only Dutch I ever have, I hate to buy a $100. book when my questions give you fellows an opportunity to stretch your mental legs!!!!!!!

Dutch Lugers were contract purchases by the government. There was no "officer procurement" as there were no non-contract Dutch Lugers to be procured. Officer issue Lugers were distinguished by the lack of a brass unit identification plate or an unmarked brass plate.

If you recall, I indicated that the Vickers contract was for the East Indies, where certainly the spring clip magazine was issued/utilized.

Do a search on some of the on-line booksellers, I am sure you can turn one up. I found one for $49.95 brand new on the first site I looked at (Ray Riling Arms Books). If you like Lugers, the book is good reading since it also has quite a bit of information about early Luger development and history.

PJ,
Try here. As Ron stated, it's a real good book about Lugers. Well worth the $50.
Tom
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/...tch+luger&x=71

Right on, Ron, I remembered the correct officers situation while showering, after having posted about 'procurement'. Sleeping through the TV news prevented me from changing it last night, too late this morning. The absence of the brass plate was evidence toward officers use. I will order the book today if possible. And I am still looking for a magazine..........

When is it too late to revive an old thread...?

I would like to get some opinions.

Who would go through the trouble of making this?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-u...281%252529.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9...283%252529.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-N...to%2525203.JPG

pretty clever actually...
 

Compared to some attempts I've seen, it's pretty clever... no wasted effort, just function... but, with nothing to stop it from going too far into the pistol, damage is pretty likely on the rear spine at the top... sooner or later.. BTW, I'd love to buy that mag shell from you, even in tough shape it would be a real treat for me.. I just like mags!! :cheers:... Best to all, til..lat'r...GT

Many of these pistols had a second, and even a third life in areas where spare parts were unobtainable. My own KNIL Vickers was 'liberated' from Palestinian sources in Israel. You can imagine you don't just pop into a shop for a new bottom piece under those conditions.

So would it be best to leave the bottom as-is for or replace it with a quality reproduction? It is pinned in place and very sturdy, although you can only load seven rounds with difficulty.

Sorry GT, I'm keeping this one as it came with my Vickers... but thanks for the offer!
It really is not as bad as it looks in the photos, just some wear in the plating near the bottom that is dark now, but no rust at all.

Since I don't think you are shooting your Vickers (which you shouldn't do if you are), the functionality of the magazine is not an issue, so I'd keep it as it is.

If you do feel like shooting it, get a replacement magazine for shooting purposes, but as I said, you shouldn't shoot a Vickers.

Guilty... I have fired it... about 4 magazines in the ~10yrs I've had it...

:o

Center mag
 

Many or all of you know that I have been away with the tractor accident with my wife; we are just back from the Oct. 25. to Jan. 12 th hospital stay.

I was surprised to see this older Dutch mag. thread show up in my box........while having drifted away from the Dutch, all this stuff is still interesting.

Enclosed are some photos of one of 3 mags. (center in the pictures) I got from large box at Knob Creek some years ago. It was missing a follower button & the bottom looked like it had been in a war (???). I liked the one piece sheet metal construction. I think it is Finn.???? The reblued 1936 is one of 2 shooters I have with these mags. in. I like the extra stiff springs they have. PJH

no problem...
 

Hi Angus.. Thanks for the thought anyway, BTW, I can make a correct/exact Dutch type spring retained bottom, for your mag.. but it's not cheap... Every one of those mags is a treasure all its own.. Best to you, til...lat'r...GT....:cheers:

hmmm
 

I'm intrigued, whats your asking price for a correct mag bottom?

P.J.
I don't want to hijack this thread, but how is Donna doing? Maybe you could start another thread and give us an update. God bless.
Ron

Hi Angus...
 

An exact reproduction would run approx. $100.00, but, it would be indistinguishable from an original... Sounds out there a'bit, but it's a tough cookie to bake!! :cheers:.... Best to you, til...lat'r....GT

$ 100 or $ 1000 ? $ 100 sounds like a great price break.

$100.00
 

Hi Ben, $100.00 (one hundred) is correct... and you're correct on the bargain part... It is many, many hours of exacting work... But, as all quality Luger parts and accessiories... That is the only way... some-one has to put in the time, either the manufacture to do it right to begin with, or the customer, to try and make it right to end with... Seems never a bargain, but when you try to make one, you find out pretty quick, how your skill matches the task... I've done it, several times.. and, I'm even amazed when they are done.. :cheers:.. Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

Hi Ben,
 

Hi Ben, maybe I could get that, but I like to take care of the forum members... sometimes these "special" projects drive me to a whole'nother level of Luger knowledge, that you have to go thru to get to?? Kind'a like Rich and Rick on the barrels, Hugh on Grips, Art, Howard and Thor on blue... We've all kinda settled into our own areas of interest, or availability of tools and materials... and we start from there... I happened to settle into magazing bottoms because I made several hundred for John V. Martz for the last three or four decades, and literally thousands more on top of that... Measure, try, touch, fail, try again... And as Mike Z. would say, fail better... I get a'lot of help from the forum members who share my passion for the construction side of Lugers.. I'd have to say we're a pretty tight bunch here.. :cheers:... Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

If you are interested, I posted a little Dutch magazine tutorial on this forum. It is a little hard to find if you don't know where to look and the posting is old enough that some of the special characters (like ") have become garbled, but it is still readable and the photos are OK. It is located at http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=17705

GT..The Dutch magazine..Apparently has no holding pin as do the DWM & Erfurt magazines..Where would one come up with a magazine with no hole with which to craft a Dutch magazine?

Dutch mag shells...
 

Hi Jerry, you are correct in that Dutch magazines, parts and pieces are as scarce as red frogs hairs... But, I think a DWM 1920 commercial mag could be substituted with a little outside work... welding, cutting and plating, etc.. The Dutch spring retainer type magazine bottoms, although no walk in the park, are do-able, and as mentioned earlier, I have done a few in the past.. They would look as did the original Dutch mag when finished, prior to the addition of the front retaining pin so many are modified to... Only newer! :cheers:....til...lat'r...GT