Gouv Kiau...?
 

Do these markings look right...?

http://www.rockislandauction.com/auc...hp?LotNum=2043

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...u_markings.jpg

No

Agree with the stemed Mr Wood.

I have handled 4 or so KIAU guns in the last few years; none look like this.

Tom A

This is not the only "suspect" Luger in the RIA auction. Of late I have heard rumours to the effect that some shenanigans may be happening in ole Moline. Too bad.

Have heard similar rumors. Suspect that some of the known boosters have had their dumping grounds compromised and are now using RIA as the sale of last resort. At least the folks at RIA appear to be making an effort to warn the public, but I am concerned that they use Costanzo so much as a reference.

Soon we will be seeing "Siecherheit Dienst, the notiorious Nazi security service" attributions on Schupo Dusseldorf police guns.



Tom A.

Oh great sages,
For the benefit of the neophytes, me for one, what does this marking mean?
Thanks,
Tom

GOUV. KIAU. is the German abbreviation for Gouvernement Kiautschou (Chinese is "Kiaochow" which is in the Shantung district). The Germans occupied this location in 1898 and garrisoned elements of the III Seebataillon there until 1914.

Thanks Ron!
Tom

IIRC,
III S.B. was captured virtually intact by the Japanese and spent the war in POW camp.

Tom A.

Period photos that I have seen indicate that the German POWs had a rather easy go of it with the Japs. Nothing like the little bastards treated US POWs taken in the Phillipines twenty eight years later.

Member sent me a jpeg of markings on his piece ...definitely much different than the one on the RIA photo.

Decided not to post...as the photo is in very good detail...and can be studied/copied by those that would try their hand at engraving...and creating more of these rare pieces...

I know some of those folks that do hang out here on the Forum and lurk...

:rolleyes:

Good call, Pete.

Tom A.

DAM GOOD call Pete.

Leo

Pete...that particular piece was purchased about 3 years ago from the third owner, and it took 2 years of negotiating to win it. It is listed in Jan Stills book Imperial Lugers. According to the "Cabals" master sheet there are only twelve others recorded.
The price was 4000. less then I paid for my three bedroom ranch house in 1963, wich was custom built

Tom,
nice write-up in Jan Stills "Imperial Lugers". Also a nice picture of the markings on Frontispiece 14b in the same book. Even I can see the difference.
Big Norm

Hi Norm,

I see the nice write up on pages 198-200...but my Frontpiece 14b does not show the Gouv Kiau marking...only a side view of a M1906 Navy and a watercolor of a German cruiser.

My book is the 1994 2nd. printing...is yours a different edition ?

1991 Edition (first edition), page xxix.

Looks like Jan came to a similar conclusion...about posting photos of the real markings...??? 2nd. edition no longer shows it...

Pete,
If you still live on Condor Way, I'll send you something.
Big Norm

Pete,
Do you really think that by not posting a picture here on the forum in 2005 that you are keeping the "bad guys" from knowing what real examples look like? Only thing you're doing is keeping the "good guys" from seeing what is correct. Goodness gracious, these guys have the tools, talent, and knowledge to reproduce anything, have been reproducing stuff for the last 20 years or so, and are getting better and better at it. They know more about finishes and variations than most collectors do, have handled more Lugers than all of us on this forum have put-together, and that is what makes them so successful. They know who has what, when they acquired it, and when it changes hands. Post the pictures as the "bad guys" have all the early books too, and have access to the real, rare stuff anyway. What few shows I've gone to lately have just had more messed with stuff with higher prices. Think about it a minute, just who are the outlets for this junk?-- Bill

Bill,
while you have a good point, I still would not want to make it easier for the 'bad guys'. Make them dig through the books. Most of these quick cash people are too lazy to work for what they need. Thats why they have to cheat in the first place. Also, if we were to name names on who we heard were the actual 'bad guys' we might accidentally be wrong one one or two times and have to face a law suit. Pete did the right thing.

Finally, the guns in question are VERY expensive. If you can afford them then you can afford to get the people who know what thay are doing to help you. As bad as it sounds, there is a level of gun collecting that the poor should not tread. Another way of putting it is that an amateur should not play 'real money' poker with strangers.
Big Norm

Norm,
Most of us have heard who is selling some of this junk and who is making it. We can't come out and print their names do to lawsuits and such. We have to say, "in my opinion" on every comment, and we are hesitant to even say something isn't correct. The "bad guys" sell some good guns too, so one person might buy a nice gun from them and his buddy might buy a piece of junk. This is the way it works and it has been going on for many, many years. How these guys treat someone they know or have heard of and how they treat "fresh meat" is totally different. Like you mentioned above about playing poker, they can size a person's knowledge and level of expertise in just a few minutes. Just look at the Rock Island Auction for example. Someone sells the junk to a collector and then it is resold to another collector and so on and so on. No one but a collector is going to pay $5000 and up for items, and they were originally sold to them from someone they trusted or believed in. I've heard of certain guns being returned up to 8 times before someone finally kept it.

I respectfully disagree with you on your comment about making it easier for the "bad guys" as they have access to the real stuff in the first place. I feel this forum is a great place with a lot of useful information, but not posting pictures to explain something when one brings it up in a thread because they are afraid the "bad guys" might find out about it, is just plain silly in my opinion. If we know about it, I'm sure they know about it also, and especially how numbers and letters should be. For instance, take K-Date Navy Lugers. You can look in any book and see correct examples of the numbers and the eagle. The problem isn't posting correct pictures, it's taking the time to look at the pictures and determine if it is correct. If the "bad guys" want to make an exact copy of a piece, they can, but the cost is too great and they don't have to when they are able to sell a decent copy. -- Bill

I agree with you Bill, I think it is better to teach folks here as the fakers and thieves who "might" learn, as I think they are up on real versus fake guns.

Ed

Guys,

I do not disagree...

But as I do not own the gun and the photo was not mine...I will let the gun's owner decide if he wants to post the photo or not.

Guys.........Please excuse the delay in answering. My family has been mourning the death of my 90+ year old father, who passed away on Friday.

I have been monertering this thread very closely and I believe Pete made the proper call in the begining. But Bill and others have made very valid points, how can we learn if we can not be shown proper identification.
If the "bad guys" are monertering this site then so be it,there are far more good guys here.

So with my permission Pete go ahead and do it.

Leo

Thanks Leo...


http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/leos_gouv_kiau.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/image002.jpg.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/image004.jpg.jpg

Another aspect of the Gouv Kiau lugers is the safety relocation work is usually pretty rough

Leo,

Condolences on the demise of your father, and many thanks for your consideration in showing us the proper picture.

--Dwight

Leo,
Thanks for sharing the pictures. Interesting comparison. Condolences to you and your family on your loss. -- Bill

leo, my condolences, it is a tough time, no matter when.

Ed

Leo, Thanks for the permission and Pete, Thanks for posting excellent photo's.
I think it was General Patton who said we should not mourn for those fallen men but rejoice that they were among us...Not an exact quote but you get the idea. I am always amazed at people who live such a long life. Gives us all hope.
I hope you have many fond memories of your Father. He will be missed by many....
Jerry Burney

Thank you all for your condolances they are deeply appreciated. At 90 and no medications at all he lived a very full life.

On a liter note..he did not have any Navy Lugers.

Heins brought up a very interesting point on the original "Gesichert" location, it apears that it was erased with a hand grinding wheel and not a machine tool.

I will rely on my good friend Pete to post a photo.....seems my photos have to be resized and I'm not that sharp on the computer.

Leo

Leo's Photo :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ouv_kiau_1.jpg

My condolances go out to you Leo

Thanks Richie.

Leo

Bill stated "I respectfully disagree with you on your comment about making it easier for the "bad guys" as they have access to the real stuff in the first place. I feel this forum is a great place with a lot of useful information, but not posting pictures to explain something when one brings it up in a thread because they are afraid the "bad guys" might find out about it, is just plain silly in my opinion. If we know about it, I'm sure they know about it also, and especially how numbers and letters should be. For instance, take K-Date Navy Lugers. You can look in any book and see correct examples of the numbers and the eagle. The problem isn't posting correct pictures, it's taking the time to look at the pictures and determine if it is correct. If the "bad guys" want to make an exact copy of a piece, they can, but the cost is too great and they don't have to when they are able to sell a decent copy. -- Bill"

I agree completely with Bill. In some cases, detailed photographs will help fellow collectors determine if a gun is correct or not. Also(as illustrated here in), there are some poor quality replicas(fakes) coming up for sale that can be detected from a mile away.
Jan

My condolances go out to you Leo

Thak you for the photo

Jim

Sympathy and condolence. Our prayers are with you and for your your Dad. The Gill Family.

Thank you all, good friends are all one needs at these times.

Leo

Potential counterfits is one of the biggest reasons I tend to stay away from the more valuable, and "rare" Lugers. Ferpetesake, aren't Lugers expensive enough as it is? These guys really suck.

Not sure how I would deal with someone if I caught them faking a gun. Depending on my mood at the time, I'm sure it would range somewhere between bring them to the cops (personally, drug in by the ear) or beating them into the ground. I think I'd probably opt for beating them into the ground. >:-(

Leo, I'm sorry to hear of your fathers passing. Ninety is a ripe old age indeed, and he got there without medications, you say? I'm VERY impressed... Still though, I'm sorry for your loss...