Of Grip Screws, Threaded Pin Holes and Grips....
 

Well - just got home and tested the theory of whether the inside threaded holes would accept the grip screws.. Here are three results. t would be interesting to see if others find a similar result:


Krieghoff - Black HK grips - sure does..!

BYF BW '42 - sure does!

Krieghoff - Brown Plastic Grips (1937 Course checkered) - no way!!!!:-)


Interesting... Maybe the scenario of folks disassembling and using the grip panel in the field isn't far off (unless you were in the Luftwaffe during the early years )

Re: Of Grip Screws, Threaded Pin Holes and Grips....
 

John just posted you below. I had tried to put the grip screws in the Brown Widow (Krieghoff) and they would'nt go.

Thanks for your reply on your thoughts on the grips.


Bob

Yep - I'm..
 

finding the same thing.. On the course checkered brown HK grips (I've tried 4 sets so far!!) - none will fit.. But - on the HK Black grips and the set of grips for the BW - they all fit...??!!


Also - a pleasure to have helped you out with identifying your HK grips - they are great!!..! Thanks for the pics - nice job in taking them!!!


John D.

Re: Of Grip Screws, Threaded Pin Holes and Grips....
 

Hi John! Do the 1937 HK grips that the screw dosen't fit, have threaded holes, or are they smooth sided? till...later...G.T.

Hi G.T.....!
 

OK - the 1937, 1938 and 1939 P-code (all course brown grips) have TWO threaded holes - somewhat smaller then the HK black grips and the BW grips... But yes - they ARE threaded...


HTH!!!

Hi John!
 

Hi John! The plot thickens!! the fact that the brown grips, that the screw does not fit in, has two threaded holes....would seem to support Marvins extraction theory, as what would be their purpose otherwise?.....the two threaded holes make even more sense, as they probably went to one hole, when they started reducing unnecessary steps in production! (make a hundred of something, and see how quick you start thinking this way!) I think that the screws fit the Mauser grips because the holes, thread, and material will yield enough to allow this....I am incline to believe that the threads were part of the molding process, as it would be difficult to remove the grips from the mold otherwise, all theory of course, but a great thread, none the less! till....later....G.T. (John, I wish I had even one set of HK grips to look at! your collection must be outstanding!)

Hi G.T....(again:) ).!
 

I agree with yours and Marvin's deductions as well. However, why do the Brown grips have TWO holes but the black grips only have one??? Did Mauser black grips ever have TWO holes??


Also - I also find it interestng that the BW and the black HKs are so similiar - almost as if they were the same supplier as Mauser. But it appears there may be minor differences in either the material or the molding process..??


For example - comparing my '42 BW production to my HK 1942 - the inside of the grips seem to be a "smoother" finish then the BYF/Mauser. But - that could be a mold or production run difference?? Additionally, my 1940 HK has that same "smooth" finish as the 1942 HK inside grips (I do not have an earlier production BYF/Mauser BW to compare these against..??!!)


So - could all these black grips have come from the same supplier?? If so - are the variations due to differences in either materials or molding processes??? And if Mauser and HK went to the same supplier - then why did Mauser continue to prefer Walnut while HK went to black grips as early as 1940???


Wow - my simple mind is reeling!!!


I agree - this is an excellent thread!!!


(BTW: G.T. Anytime you'd like to come up - you are more then welcome to view my collection of Lugers..!! )

Re: Of Grip Screws, Threaded Pin Holes and Grips....
 

For all. I sent John pictures of the grips that were on the Luger Listed in tread as Brown Widow) that I purchased from AIM. He identified them as being 1938 Course Brown Kriegoffs so I did luck out when I bought the S/42 1940 that AIM had advertised.


Tracy

Can you send me...
 

a larger photo of the left hand grip - esp near the grip screw area and the clip button release??? Also - the left top for the safety looks mighty clean edged - so a close up of that area would be neat - as well as the right top grip (the edge looks pretty narrow)..


Finally - the right hand *inside* should have two THIN protrusions - do you have a shot of that, maybe??


Guess I'm totally "undecided" 'till I can focus my eyes better on the details in this tiny photo!!!

Re: Can you send me...
 

I will when I get them! I just bought them on eBay as repros. The description said "Krieghoff Type". I can hope, cant I?

Very Funny...
 

I knew something looked strange - but didn't want to say they were repros until I saw the details and could walk you through what I thought... Seems some folks get really upset when I tell them things look - ummm - "not original"...


LOL!!!!

You bet!! They are in nice shape as well....!!!
 

It was a pleasure to have helped you out on that... I just wish I knew more about S/42s so I could have participated on that thread..!!!


Frankly - I think you got a great deal on that Luger..!!!!

Hi John.....& Hugh!
 

Hi John! I really don't know why they were different in subtle ways here and there, but if I were to guess, I would think they (the molds) were made to print....so, althought mostly similar, they would exhibit minor differences, especially in finish! This could happen as a result of different manufactures, or different machinists in the same factory! Also molds tend to wear and suffer from adjustments and use, it could be that the Mauser molds suffered from this, as their production numbers were far higher.....As the threaded pin removal theory is just that, theory....I would venture a guess that it was just a positive attempt to have a good part from the mold....if Marvin's theory is correct, then one of the pins would have to be loose, or float in some way, so it could be removed first.....if they found they could get by with just one pin, then the second pin would disappear in a heartbeat!

I think that making the Black Widow grips was not an easy or fast process, certainly many times faster then making walnut grips, but still labor intensive compared with the ease and speed of the plastic parts that are made now!


Perhaps Patrick can querry some of the Germans on this process, I would really like to know if our assumptions have merit.....And, I would love to view your HK collection, we shall have to see what the future holds! Till....later.....G.T.

Holes and Stamps
 

G.T. G�¶rtz states categorically that the threaded holes were to extract the grips from the mold - and not for the grip screws. He states that they were neither meant nor suited for that purpose. There is no substantiation in the form of directives or orders that grip screws were to be kept in the threaded holes. On the contrary, disassembly in the field was not permitted.


The first and best known supplier of plastic grips was H. R�¶mmler AG in Spremberg whose code was â??32â?� ; the abbreviation â??HRSâ?� was also used as a stamp. Plastic grips

stamped â??MPDâ?� were approved by the Staatliche Materialpr�¼fungsamt Berlin-Dahlem (State Material Testing Facility) and a â??Tâ?� denoted the type of phenol resin used. Code â??8964â?� denoted a resin content of 90% and â??64â?� denoted a marble pattern in the material.


As plastic material was first used in large scale production during WWII, methods and materials changed during development. Towards the end of the War, most raw materials were scarce and had to be substituted. Other suppliers did not use these stamps and the materials they used were not tested. This is all I could find -Patrick

Re: Holes and Stamps
 

Patrick,


I knew you would come through with the information on the threaded holes! Thanks for your search on this. Wow, this entire thread has been a real learning experience for me. It always amazes me of some small, almost insignificant detail, that can shed so much light on this subject. I wish someone with a good writing skill could compile all this information on the BW grips and put it into the General Information Section. This is great and I for one, sure appreciate all the input from the members of this Forum. Thanks guys and this is what this Forum is for; Learning more about Lugers!


marvin

Thanks Patrick!!
 

Thanks Patrick! I can just visualize that mold splitting open and a brand new black plastic grip setting on top of those pins in mid air! I can almost smell them! Ahhh, The power of Lugers! till......later.....G.T.

WOW..!
 

I din't know where or how you find this info - BUT THANK YOU for sharing it with us!!!!!

Re:G.T. & Plastic Smell
 

G.T.,


Man, you are one guy after my own heart. I know the smell of Thermoset plastic coming from the mold and it is great! I had not thought about the smells until you mentioned it and I love it.


I know the style machines that were used and I can visualize the workers in the plant placing the poweder charge, seeing the mold close and then opening and getting the hot parts out, and letting them cool a little and then de-flashing. Wow, good memories.


Marvin

Re:G.T. & Plastic Smell
 

Like working at a chocolate factory, be good for a while, then you would either get sick of it or you wouldnt be able to smell it anymore! Just kidding..........great visual story!

Going back in time!
 

Marvin! I'm pretty sure we have covered some of the same trail! I have limited experience in thermo forming plastics, and a little more in thermo setting plastics, especially catalyst accellerated polyester and epoxy resins.....and I have also endured the smell of hot styrene when some projects have gone astray!! It is amazing how a mental visualization can bring back those unforgotten smells, or at least the thought of them.......the work they did in the first half of the 20th century was labor intensive indeed...I often think about the operators and the machines they had to use!! Another smell that I will never forget is buytelrate dope for airplane fabric, I think I can smell it if someone even mentions an airplane wing!! I'll bet Patrick can smell that one while reading this post! (Patrick restores aircraft!!) It certainly was a fun thread! till....later....G.T.

Off Topic A/c Dope
 

G.T. The old German gentleman who taught me to cover rag aircraft used to put his head in the drum and breathe in the fumes every morning before work. I suppose he lost quite a few brain cells every time. When the sun had heated up the workshop, the fumes got so bad that you couldn�´t see the opposite wall. I even collapsed once and had to be carted out into the fresh air. I�´ve been told that workers at Piper quite often became addicted. Patrick

Re: Going back in time - Plastics
 

G.T.,


It has been a long time for me. After getting out of the Army, I went to work for a company as a mechaincal engineer and one of my responsiblities was the Molding Shop. we had 6 Thermoset machines and 4 Thermoplastic machines. The Thermoplastics was for electical wire plug mostly with PVC. The Thermosets were for Bakelite electrical base plates and then Thermoset molded cases. Most of the molds were 4 or 6 cavity type. We also had problems with extraction of the cases and I can fully understand the problems of removing a Luger grip from the mold. I be the also used a mold release agent to help because of all the fine checkering on the grip. Ah, sweet memories.


marvin

Re: Off Topic A/c Dope
 

Yup! That's the stuff alright! I used to get headaches if I was around it to much, we never had adequate ventilation....sure does make pretty airplanes though! Till....later....G.T.

Re: Going back in time - Plastics
 

Marvin! Don't you wish you knew then, what you know now! You would be like a kid in a candy shop! You definitly have some serious insight into the process used! I'll bet you can see the grips being made in you minds eye! till....later....G.T.

Re:G.T. & Plastic Smell
 

Hi Ted! Yes, it's like too much candy, or not enough, you need to reach a middle ground. I saw a program about U-boats where the captain said all their food tasted like diesel oil, so when they got back on land, fresh food had no taste at all to them!! Probably pretty much the same as the chocolate idea!! till....later....G.T.