What can the experts tell me about this Luger?
 

Admittedly, my knowledge of Lugers is limited, but this one to me seems unusual. Most of the markings I've not seen before. The gun is a Finnish M23 with the 9mm Tikka replacement barrel. Most of the receiver group matches itself, and most of the barrel extension and toggle group matches each other, but both halves of the pistol are toatlly mis-matched to each other, which I guess is common on these Finns. I know this Luger came straight from Finland to me through a Canadian Dealer and it was still in heavy Finnish storage oil when I got it last week.

So please, someone help me decypher this one's past!

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...ger%20left.JPG
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...er%20right.JPG

Here you can see that the receiver ring doesn't seem to be out of round (unless I'm just not looking at it properly?) - yet there is no barrel extension date stamp...? That isn't really rus on the bbl - it's storage grease combined with a bright camera flash... :eek:
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...8_bblslide.JPG

And this is odd... notice that there seems to be an old detent in the middle of the Gesichert marking - ???
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa..._gesichert.JPG

The mis-matched wood mag it came with - it's stamped with a "+", so I assume it was once a spare mag.
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...28_magbott.JPG

Here are some faint proof marks that are partially buffed off, but they look like Imperial Army to me - might be an Erfurt eagle on the end, next pic I blew them up and increased the contrast.
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...246_proofs.JPG
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...39_proofs2.JPG

Here are the bbl extension markings - anyone seen this before? Obviously the SA is Finland, but what's with the Star over the C and the flaming bomb proof? Anybody?
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...slidemark2.JPG

The toggle appears to be a DWM commercial because the serials are all hidden instead of out in the open and the proofs are crowns over an "N"
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...515_toggle.JPG

Lastly, another shot of the top of the bbl extension - Erfurt? ex-artillery? You tell me!
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...518559_top.JPG

If anyone would like additional pics, let me know.

Also, I forgot to take a pic of it, but the frame serial number is "1870 L" with the L in small-case cursive.

Claven:
The cut on the top front of the receiver indicates it might have had an artillery barrel at one time.

Regard Ken D

Hi Ken,

Yes, I knew about that aspect of it, however, if the barrel extension is off an Erfurt made between 1914 and 1918, it could be either an artillery OR a normal P08. From what I can make out of the buffed military proofs, I think the extension WAS made between '14 and '18. Possibly a salvaged part re-used later on by DWM when they were making 1920's commercial guns - but I'm no expert.

I do know the Finns bought commercial Lugers from 1923 onward, mostly from DWM (and later from Mauser) in .30 Luger - I suspect these were just normal Weimar commercials, but stand to be corrected. When the Finns rebuilt these to 9mm (not sure when), most got their parts mix-matched as the Finns tried to build the nicest working Lugers possible with the limited supply of well-used Lugers on hand. The parts were then refurbished and built in to pretty nice guns.

Just wish I could nail down better what the markings on it mean. These Finns tell interesting stories IMHO, especially give the possible origins of the various parts.

Does anyone know if Erfurt salvaged parts would have been used by DWM when they refurbished the Weimar Lugers and built up the 1920's commercials?

That is quite a "story book" Luger you have there! It spent some time in Belgium, which is the origin of the odd marks on the receiver. The bomb with the flames and fancy script "L" is a Belgian proof for guns of foreign make. The star over the "C" is a Belgian inspector's mark.

According to the markings here:

http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/proof-2.html

It would seem that the proofs on my barrel extension (right side) indicate
"15. German military receiver proof. Found on DWM Lugers 1914-1918."


http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarki...fs/proof-2.jpg
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...39_proofs2.JPG

So I guess it's likely na ex-artillery barrel extension maybe recycled by DWM for the 1920's Finnish contract M23 Lugers.

Hmm... the plot thickens... so the barrel extension was an artillery luger that somehow got to Belgium and was proofed there, then came back to DWM to be incorporated into commercial production, where it got sent to Finnland to be part of the M23 program...???

If I were to take a wild guess, I would think it was a DWM artillery that found its way to Belgium, and then the Finns picked it up in a parts scrounge and made a M23 out of it.

Hmm... interesting. Did many DWM artillery Lugers go to Belgium? What can you tell me about the frame? Serial number 1870L? Also with that weird detent near the safety?

Has anyone else here seen a Finn like this one before?

The partially buffed-out Eagle on the right receiver is clearly an Erfurt power-proof. That being the case, the receiver could be any year 1915-18, as all Erfurt receivers were cut with the Artillery sight notch. The "weird detent" could be a hardness test.

--Dwight

Are you sure it's an Erfurt proof? I can't find reference to it anywhere except for symbol 15 above - and that's a DWM proof. ????

A quick search on the net revealed these two images of Imperial Luger barrel extension proofs.

wartime DWM:
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...WM%20eagle.jpg

wartime Erfurt:
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploa...rt%20proof.jpg

I don't find my partially buffed eagle looks particularly like either - so how can you tell which it is? Not trying to be snooty - I just really want to know (and learn).

The proof shown in the marking sheets in the Technical Information section for an Erfurt is in error. The characteristic Erfurt eagle is different. Shown here is are the inspector and power-proof marks from my 1917/18 Erfurt, take particular note of the left edge of the eagle stamp.

--Dwight

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/191718rproofs.jpg

The Finnish model designation for your pistol ( 9mm ) is M/08. The Finnsih Lugers chambered in the original 30 cal and designated M23. The grips that the Luger is wearing are standard Finnish replacements. Nice piece of history.

Are you sure those grips are standard Finnish replacements? They look like the inexpensive BLACK WIDOW reproduction grips that have sold for $12-20 in the last couple of years...

I will try to take some pics of the inside and outside of some of the Finnish replacement grips this weekend and post them here.

The attached link will go to pictures of one of my Finnish Lugers with this type of grips. The link will go to a post on another board ( I hope that this is ok ! )This one came to me along with a few other Finnish lugers two years ago. Century Arms received a lot of 20 Lugers from Finland and this one was included in the group. I also was fortunate enough to have added 4 to my collection from this import that have the round brass unit disk still intact in the right grip panel. In addition to the luger pictured in the link above I think that I have two or three other Finn Lugers with the same replacement grip. The others have all come to me from the four winds. I have also seen pictures of a few other Finn Lugers with this type of grip.

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1341

Yes, these are ABSOLUTELY Finn grips. The Luger was purchased from Collector's Source in Canada. About two years ago they got a crate of these Lugers and maybe 1/3rd of them had the black grips, 1/3 had normal wood grips, and the last third had wood grips inletted for the removed unit disks.

When I disassembled the Luger for the first time, the whole gun was filled with the same type of Lubricant I found on my Finn Mosins, kind of a yellow-ish green storage oil. It was smeared into the grips too and I'd say these grips have been on this gun a long while. There's wear along the grips edges to suggest they some some military use at some point before being put to store.

Additionelly, they seem to have been fitted to this Luger, because the rear of the grips is covered in small swirls, as though a milling machine had machined the back to create the raised areas that synch with the frame. I don't think they're German "Black Widdow" grips, but they are Finnish issue grips, probably made in Finland.

Hmm... I thought the M/08 Lugers were only the ones with the standard 4" barrel? This Luger has a 4,3/4" barrel. I know the M23 contract Lugers were originally in .30 Luger, but from what I've seen/heard, at some point, the decision was made that all Lugers going through refurb from this point onward (not sure when) are going to become 9mm's, and that's when these longer barrels were used - supposedly so that they would better approximate the feel of the Lahti pistols then comming into service.

Do you know the exact progression here? M/23, then M/08's and M/23's concurrently, then the long barelled 9mm's?

Claven

The Tikka replacement barrels were made in at least two different lengths and I have Tikkas in both 9mm and 30cal.

Some of the M/08 pistols were brought to Finland by the Finnish "Jaeger" division ( trained in Germany form 1915-1918) and used in their war of independence in 1918. A few more M/08 pistols were purchased from Belgium during the Winter War 1939-40. During the war years and after the wars some more of the M23's along with other P/08s that had been acquired ( some from civilian population ) had their barrels replaced with Tikka barrels in both calibers.

So then given the Belgian proofs on my barrel extension, it's a fair bet that at least that part of my Luger came by way Belgium in the 1939-40 timeframe?

Hi,

I'd rather think that any artilleries that surfaced in Belgium actually were WW1 stock, impounded by the Belgians after the Germans left.

A number of artilleries and navies, taken from German Vessels in the Antwerp port harbour and other coastal areas, were offered for sale on the open market in the early 20s. The Dutch government bought a number of artilleries and navies in that era as well.

Your Belgian proofed part could have come into Finland in that time frame ( less that 100 pistols came in from Belgium at that time )

Three finish Lugers are in the pictures and with all the same type of black plastic grips. The undersides of the grips all have the same markings from the molds. The upper two Lugers are both 9mm Tikka barrels and are in different lengths. The lower pistol in the picture is 30 cal. and is the one that is shown in the link above. I realize that I did not do a good job with these pictures in the artificial light this evening. :(:(

couldn't figure out how to insert multiple pics in the message!

under sides are all the same.

Yes, my grips have thoseexact same cast marks and swirl patterns from machining. Not sure if the backs of the grips were machined, or if the mold had the machining marks and they were transfered to the grips??? But anyway, they are definitely a commonly found Finn Luger feature.

By the way - did those aluminum mags come with those finns? All the Finn Lugers I've seen have had wood bottomed mags, and I've seen a good many now...

Yes the aluminum mags came with the pistols from Finland. Also I just fond that 4 of my Finn Lugers have the black plastic replacement grips not three. This fourth set shows much more use ( chips ) and some fitting adjustments.

Geez - how many Finns do you have!? ;) Just kidding - I'm green with Envy. I'm fascinated by most Russio-Finnish conflict guns.

I do have a like new set of these Finnish made grips available @$100. I also have a few sets of used Portusese made (courser checkering) black widow grips, that are often seen on their 42 BYFs, @$50/set + $5 S&H in US. hellerarms@webtv.net

Hmmm... I have a new theory about the Belgian proofs on my Luger's barrel extension.

According the Walter's "The Luger Story" page 148, Anciens Etablissements Pieper of Herstal-lez-Liege was subcontracted to produce some Luger parts for Erfurt. Since my barrel extension is Erfurt proofed and also bears Belgian proofs, could it not be a Belgian produced part? Barrel Extensions are not expressly listed as being made there, but "many small parts" could potentially include barrel extensions, could it not?

What say the experts?

Hi,

I doubt it. The proof is a Belgian ' import' proof and would be found on pistols that were not produced in Belgium, but were proofed their as part of an import into the country. As the Belgians would not only proof the receiver, but also the barrel it's more likely that the original was a seized pistol, which was proofed in Belgium after WW1 had ended, had both barrel and receiver proofed and was later sold and ended up in Finland.

The barrel has been changed out somewhere along the way, destroying any proofs that were on it originally.

Cannot help much on this subject, but what I know for sure is that the fancy L inside the exploding bomb, is the belgian stamp for the LIEGE (city east of bruxelles) weapon proof & test "agency", every gun that go trough belgium has to go there, is test fired, and if pass the test with success, the L is stamped on barrel and slide. It doesn't mean the gun has been in Belgium between 1939_1940, if you buy or sell a gun in belgium now, it'll get this stamp. It's the law. Hope this help, even a little.