LugerForum Discussion Forums - Phoney Artillery Holster

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Phoney Artillery Holster

Fellows, this holster is as fake as John Kerry's silver star. There have been some nice rigs sell recently for 2000 bucks or better but this is not one of those.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

Here's another one. The seller makes no claims as to authenticity.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

Jerry Burney

Jerry, This turkey went for over $2000. Wow!

Jerry, quit being so picky, afterall, it fits an Artillery lugAR !! :D

Another chump makes a large tuition payment at Luger U.

Tom A.

Jerry,
It would be very helpful to us neophytes if you pointed out what is wrong with this holster. From the small pictures it's difficult to see much detail that shows what's wrong.
Tom A educated me at NAPCA regarding the smell test but that's difficult on eBay.
Thanks for your input,
Tom

Thanks everyone for their input on these horrible examples of newbie folly. They would have been much better off investing the same money in books.

Tom, I apologize, it will have to be short. I am behind a half dozen holsters and must work.

From what I remember on the stocked rig the boot is flimsey and not lined with rawhide. Not correct at all so it leads me to suspect the whole rig. The brass studs were clunky, not fine enough for German manufacture. They also had little or no patina. The metal screws in the stock were shiney too. Original stock screws are steel and have a heavy black patina.

On the holster, I asked the seller for a photo of the back and there is a belt loop below the stock block. This is indicative of a 1960's repro. The stock block also has only a single stitch down the middle and no block in the center. Two lines of stitching on the ends where only one is on originals. If one takes the time to look the details will jump out at you and tell the sad story.

I am often fooled at first glance. I always ask for a photo of the back of holsters as they will tell you more than the front.

Jerry Burney

Thanks Jerry. This one would have fooled me. Ignorance is like the puppy peeing on the cash register...it runs into money.

Thanks Jerry, that's helpful information to put in the old data bank.

Nice saying re: the puppy Ron, I think I'll use that one.

Tom

This one did fool me I placed a bid earler on. than studdied the photo's some more. At that point the stock looked to new to me no age at all. Pity the poor guy who bought it.

There are quite a few old repro's out there and they will be 45 years old or so...Old enough to look original at first glance.

Ron, You crack me up! I guess it would run into money! I don't have much so I have to be very carefull .

Tom, I could detail a half dozen more little markers on both of these holsters. Sometimes the photo's are not good enough, if you wonder always ask for more detailed photo's.

I don't pity the buyer. We have always made mistakes, all of us. It is part of the learning curve. I feel it is my responsibility to educate myself or surround myself with others who are willing to help me. Thus, this great Forum. Thanks to all of you who contribute.

Jerry Burney

Looks like a few LF members were also fooled and bid...at least none of these guys was the "winner"...

Here is a picture of the holster that is in question. Jerry did not see this exact picture, as I had already deleted the others from my files. I have just taken these, therefore, Jerry may have a different opinion. I do not profess to know anything about German Lugers or their accessories. That is why I have shown them to people who are more informed than I, to be able to offer an accurate description of them. I did not receive any negative comments regarding the holster from anyone who saw this in person, but then again, maybe they do not know what they are looking at or are as knowledgeable as Jerry. I too, would like to know what is wrong with these items, so I don't misrepresent them if I so happen to come across something similar again.

Here is a picture of the back of the holster. In person, the color of the leather does not stand out nearly as dramatically as the picture would indicate. I do not even know what the stock block is or the belt loop Jerry refers to, so again, I am asking for answers as to why this is incorrect. I have access to this holster for another day, so if anyone has any other questions or comments regarding this stock/holster, I would appreciate any comments. If the rig is as bad as Jerry described, then I will probably be getting it back, as I have a full money back return policy if not satisfied. I am not out to gouge or trick anyone, all I am trying to do is sell a stock and holster for what it is. Tracy

Hi Tracy,

If you have the ensemble at home still, could you take and post better photos than were on e-Bay...a good detailed look would certainly help...

I cannot be sure but the serial number/sufix on the stock iron sure looks like it has a "halo" to me...but cannot be sure of the glare in the photo...

Glad to hear you are on the square and offer a refund...cannot fault anyone that does that !

Regards,

Pete...:typing:

Here is a picture of the stock iron. The original pictures I took for ebay showed all the detail, but when they post them on their auction site, they compress them and therefore, lose much of their clarity. That is why I always ask potential bidders to ask questions and email me for more pics. I emailed more detailed pictures to about 40 prospective bidders, sometimes more than once, when I originally didn't get the angle they wanted. Again, I want to proclaim that I am not trying to hide or deceive anyone. I'll let the pictures speak for themselves. Tracy

Picture of the metal stock screws.

This will be the last picture, it is of the flap enclosure studs. My friend took these photo's for me and was able to downsize them for me. If anyone wants more pictures, I will directly email them , only they will be in a larger file. Thanks for looking and hopefully for some tips on what to look for and what not to look for. As you can see from the photo's, I am not trying to hide anything. I must admit, the screws look pretty new, but again, I don't know what they are supposed to look like. Tracy

I gotta admit, it still fools me. To my uneducated eye I couldn't tell you if it was original or not. I wonder if we are looking at two different rigs? I don't see the double line of stitching on the ends of the stock block nor do I see a belt loop, the boot is lined, and the screws look patinated. ????

I'm glad I don't have to make the call.

I found another pic which I hadn't posted yet. It is a pic of a stamping of 1916 found on the inside portion of the endcap (closest to wood).

Ron, If you look at the ebay posting, I list the serial # as 6816 with a cursive l underneath it. As you can clearly see in the above photo, the stock metal is stamped # 6816. There should be no doubt that this is the same stock as was listed on ebay. Tracy

Tracy, Thanks for the photo's of your holster. I must say I admire your candid disclosure. Also your return policy.

I am not the holster Police and people are free to invest their money in any way they see fit. As long as you are showing good photo's they can make up their own mind as to authenticity. After reviewing your latest photo's I may have done you a grave injustice. Your rig does have the marks of being mostly authentic with some questionable parts.

I would love to see a photo of the back of this holster. You would have to remove it from the stock and I do not blame you if you do not want to do this. It can be a little complicated. Took another look at the thread and I see you have provided this photo. The stock block looks good.

There are several things about this holster that do not square with original German manufacture.
The large screw and washer holding on the toe strap to the stock and the boot strap which holds the boot. This is intirely too new to be period. The screw and washer should be a very dark brown color, some are almost black. Under this should be three small hand hammered rivets with washers. Either brass or steel depending on early or late manufacture. This one is sewn and consequently not of German make. I suspect the toe strap has been replaced but the boot is authentic.

The four screws with washers shown attaching the closure strap to the stock are both steel. The washers should be stamped brass. I have never seen steel washers on an original stock. There may have been some, I just have never seen any. I also don't like the corners cut on the leather above the screws. Too much cut.

The last photo you show is the closure strap. It actually looks pretty good but normally the Germans did not mushroom the tops of the rivets this much. Many on original rigs are slightly mushroomed and have three or more flat sides to the top as if they were struck with a small flat bottomed drift.

The photo of the boot you show is not too bad either. In the eBay photo I could not detect a rawhide liner but it seems to have it after all. The date you show certainly is authentic.

The stock wood is a little light but that may be the lighting. Generally they get pretty dark with age compared to the one shown. Maybe it was kept away from light all these years. The iron looks good to me and the metal to wood fit looks like German craftsmanship.
One question, below the 4 screws holding the leather closure strap to the stock, is there a mark stamped into the wood? Crown S for instance?

All in all I think the buyer will be happy with this rig. One thing I have found is accurate close up photo's help to inform those who might find a holster questionable.

I applaud your willingness to discuss your holster here.

Ron, I was discussing two different holsters. The first one was a holster alone. No rig or stock and it is a genuine phoney. The seller sent me a photo of the back but did not put it on eBay.

Jerry Burney

Jerry, Thank you for your response. As I said earlier, I did not send you these same pictures, and that is where some confusion may have started. I have heard nothing but good about your knowledge of holsters, and I am grateful for the explanation of what is right and what is wrong with this holster/stock. I feel many of us newbies have learned a great deal regarding "righteous" holsters from this post. As for the stock, it does not have any stamping on them except for the #924 in about 1/2" tall characters close to the stock metal.
Thank you Heinz for the links to other lugers/rigs. To my untrained eye, I would think that the screws in the last rework link appear to be "not original" as they appear to be finished completely different than the rest of the metal. My stock doesn't look exactly like the wood in the links, but it is very close, being slightly lighter. My stock is not highly varnished, as some pictures on the links appear, but rather a stained appearance with open pores to the wood. The screws I could not tell from the link pictures, but they are close, but I cannot tell for sure. The washers on my rig is definately not brass.
Pete, I do not know if the picture of the stock metal showed what you are referring to as the "halo" Please tell me if it is or is not supposed to have it. I have been told that the stamping under the barrel should have a halo due to it having been blued and then struck, causing the halo effect.
I have learned quite a bit from this post and hope everyone else who reads this also has gained some knowledge. I wish there were more posts similar to this which gave detailed pictures and explanations of what is right or wrong with the item posted. Thanks to all who posted. I guess more than anything, I need to build a library and educate myself on the intricacies of the Lugers. Tracy

The buyer of the stock/holster rig received it today. He said "It's absolutely beautiful. I love it" . I do not know if he is as knowledgeable as everyone on the Forum, but he likes it and that is all that really matters. Tracy

TNAK,
the serial numbers on the iron of your stock are larger than any that I have seen on any other iron. Does your wood stock have a proof mark? It would be located just below the four screw holes for the strap that goes over the holster lid.
Big Norm

Big Norm, There were no proof marks of any kind on the stock. The only markings on the stock were three numbers stamped into the wood near the stock metal. (924) if memory serves me correctly. As for the serial numbers size, I do not know how large they are supposed to be. I did not measure them, but I am guessing that they were about an 1/8" tall, maybe slightly smaller. Tracy