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K date Kriegsmarine
I have been given the oportunity to purchase a 100% condition K date Kreigsmarine Luger complete with correct mags and Holster and tools.
I have no idea what so ever of what it would be worth! Can anyone advise please........! Regards |
3-4-$5000 and up U.S. K dates are extremly hard to find and a KM would be icing on the kake. So many questions, so little time. Holster KM marked? Tool marked? Condition? KM marking on pistol? Where and what? Photo's ?Mags match? Could be an $8000 pistol. More info! Jerry Burney
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If I had to give an estimate, I would say between $10k-$15k. I would definitely like to see an image of the near mint KM rig if you have an opportunity to photograph it.
Good luck, Albert |
Thanks Guys,
After my investment in the Borchardt, the offer of this gun is very untimely. Yes to all the questions, matching mags, correct holster, correct tool, correct cleaning rod. I will post some photos. If I dont buy it, one of you guys might. It is in the USA. Kind wishes Murray |
I purchased a KM K-Date rig 2 years ago. Had 2 matching mags and holster SN to pistol. It was a 5 figure price....
Tom A. |
I purchased my K-date Navy at least 8 years ago and it was over $4000 then. At that time there was only approximately 12 documented. There are a lot of totally fake K-dates and a lot of fake K-date Navies also. A complete rig with two matching magazines is almost too good to be true. I'd check this out very well before purchasing and find out what history I could on it. A gun like that had to be known and someone will have some information on it. --- Bill
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Gun was from a vet's widow's estate. He was a career Navy man. There was a bunch of other souvenirs but I was only interested in the pistol. It was offered to me for less by the old woman's daughter, but I told her that I insisted on paying a "fair" price.
Sometimes a blind pig finds an acorn. Tom A. |
Hi Tom,
The way you acquired yours is the best way, but seldom found these days. Mine came from the Tom Knox collection. In reference to the gun that "Lugers down under" is looking at, there should be some history on it, and someone should know something about it. A complete K-date Navy with 2 matching magazines just doesn't stay hidden with no one remembering it, unless it was like your Luger and a vet still had it. I know of only 2 K-date Lugers with 2 matching magazines, yours makes 3, and I remember who has them and roughly what the serial numbers are, and other collectors remember these things also. Anyway, if the above rig is correct it is a real find. -- Bill |
I have made some more inquiries and the responce is as follow:
Quote. This luger came from Florida. I purchased it from a wealthy collector here in Minnesota who lives there in the winter, summers in a VERY affluent part of Minnesota. He has been a serious colllector for a long, long, time. He buys and sells only top quality pieces. His friend owns and operates a WWII collector's business in the Naples, Florida area. They both are on the lookout for quality pieces every day. To put it simply, they do this for a living, and have done so, for a long time. As you are probably aware, a lot of retires live in Florida, and these WWII vets are dying off at a rate of about 1,000 per day. I guess the world's loss is a collector's gain. I appreciate your genuine concern regarding the authenticity of this piece. I would feel the same way. Also, understand, I KNOW what I've got. And am willing to sit on it for the right price. I get the feeling that this item is out side my current bank account having just bought the Borchardt . I will post some photos and then leave it to you guys. |
LDU, you might check with Pete Ebrink on that Minnesota - Naples Florida connection. He had some information a couple of weeks ago and I don't remember if that was the same locus of operation.
That Borchardt may be doing you a favor. |
Murray, Minnesota is a very nice place; good pheassant hunting and some huns also. The women are all of Norwegian and German stock and can step across a four strand barbed wire fence with ease. It's cold but nice but neither as cold nor as nice as North Dakota.
Another thing about Minnesota and Lugers is that there is a notorious Luger dealer/counterfeiter there. This is not the case with North Dakota also North Dakota hase sharp tailed grouse and some sage grouse. A much better place. I have no interest in a K date. Email me the name of the dealer and I'll tell you if you have wandered into a minefield. |
To ampliyfy my pal George,
If the gun came out of Minnesota, I'd be VERY AFRAID. Tom A |
Hi Heinz,
The posting I was involved with a couple of weeks ago had to do with a luger vendor that lives in Michigan and moves to Florida for the winter...G&G Relics...Gil Hoffman...one of our LF members was concerned when he lost track of Gill during his seasonal move...no connection to the state of MN... http://www.ggrelics.com/ Regards, Pete...:typing: |
Thanks Pete,
I think I confused the Ellis/Zomber posting you did with something else I heard from Minnesota. The story Murray had about the expert dealers sounded a little like one of the stories associated with that sad affair Certainly did not mean to associate Gil Hoffman with that crowd! |
Anyone know where in Florida the Harvey Branch-family operated/operates from...? Is it Naples ???
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Pete,
Last I heard it was Jacksonville. Tom A |
Which is pretty close to Naples as I recall. if that is relevant.
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WOW Murray! It's a beauty. I cannot critique it as I know nothing about these except I would love to have one. I will be interested to see what the experts say about it.
I like the photo of your complaint department! Jerry Burney |
What a comfortable looking armchair... I have never seen one before that had a place to rest your hands :D
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In Third Reich Lugers, Jan Still has reported a K-date Kriegsmarine, s.n. 2113 with property no. O.1750 -- the same property no., but different serial.
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Heinz,
Naples and Jacksonvillle are on opposite sides of the state My guess it would be a 5 to 6 hour drive between the two. But I guess in some parts of the county thats close Jim |
LDU,
Thanks for posting the pictures. You're very lucky you have to repay the wife back, otherwise when your wife found out you bought this totally bogus piece of junk she'd be kicking your ass big time. In my opinion this is a total fake with nothing being correct on it. You better go look at some pictures and compare features before you jump into this area. Nothing is correct on this piece from the barrel to the E/M to the scriptic S markings to the magazines. Whoever is selling this as an original should be held accountable for fraud! -- Bill |
Bill,
The guy who is selling this gun apparently bought it a few years ago in good faith. I believe he is selling it in good faith. I doubt if he is aware of it's authenticity, if any. The photos were supplied to me by a relative who had a good digital camera. It is interesting to read some of the feed back. I suppose at the end of the day it should "caveat emptor" I am certainly not going to jump into this area. One of the prime reasons alone is the cost. For me to purchase it would cost me NZ$21,000.00 and no one in this country would pay that for it or any other Luger much other than a 1900 carbine maybe. ( I would be required to pay G.S.T {12.5% Goods and Srvices Tax,} on the gun when I imported it, were as the same item already in New Zealand is classed as "second hand goods" and thus attracts no tax,) The second reason is that I cannot determine it's authenticity from "down under" here" I have thus offered it up to all on the forum "where is, as is" warts and all! Regards Murray :cheers: |
Murray,
I am glad Bill stepped in on this piece. It is way out of my area of knowledge, but even to my untrained eye it looks really bad. As Bill said, be thankful that the Borchardt (nice purchase by the way!) precluded your acquisition of this dubious example. |
I agree...the gun has been restrawed....buffed...and the Marine markings look strange!!!....I handled a real Marine K date 3 weeks ago.....(unfortunately,the owner did not want to part with it)......if ever obtained ....will post photos....
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Interesting...I guess I better let the big dogs roam and stay on the porch. I still have a lot to learn. Jerry Burney
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All,
Once again it is clear: this is about betting that you know as much or more than the other guy. Clearly, someone made that bet and lost. Tom A. |
Murray, now I remember where I have seen you..."McHales Navy".
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Geo, I was thinking "Yosemite Sam". :)
Nice Choppers!!! Ron |
LDU,
Please share with us the name of the gentleman who is selling this rig. Thanks -- Bill |
Bill,
The seller is a Mr John Frooth. E-mail address is avaliable by private request to me. Regards\ Murray LDU |
Out of interest,
While we are seeing some interesting comments concerning the doubtful authenticity of the K date KM, I have recieved an equal number of e-mails with contrary favourable opinions, some from persons who should know. For those of you who have commented such as ..."McHales Navy". "Yosemite Sam". and" Nice Choppers!!! . Well, you are all just jealous that I am sitting in the sun, and you are all shovelling snow! Kindest wishes LDU:cheers: |
Hi,
This thread is the perfect learning example. In my opinion the above mentioned KM K-Date Luger is totally fabricated to resemble an original example. I've been waiting for some of the regulars to jump in here and explain what is wroing with this piece, but so far no one has. I guess that is because they are scared to voice their opinions due to being legally held responsible. Again, in my opinion, it is obvious that the characteristics of this piece are not correct and from the pictures you can compare this piece to a real piece in Jan Stills books and see the differences. So, in my opinioin, anyone who is saying this KM Luger is correct either doesn't know what they are talking about, or is in on the scam. Further, what's with all the private messages anyway? If you have something to say, say it to all of us so we can possibly learn something. Next, it is interesting that not a single person has even asked what is wrong with this piece. If your not interested enough to even want to know what a fake looks like, then spend the bucks and get this piece or some similar to it. I'm sure the guy who made this piece has more. -- This is actually somewhat funny but also sad that anyone who collects Lugers could think that this piece is correct! A new variation perhaps? --- Good luck --Bill |
Bill,
"without prejudice" I am completely neutral on the gun. The facts are that the owners brother inlaw asked me to identify the gun, as he knew nothing about Lugers at all, and sought my advice. He and his family and my wife and I were attending the 13th Annual Thompson Sub-machine gun show and shoot being held in August just past at the NRA head quaters at Fairfax Va. Now ask me about 1921Thompsons and I will tell you all, but this K Date surpasses my meager Luger knowledge. It was offered to me for sale.I declined. In the spirit of our Luger forum I have offered it to the forum members. There is no "private message" conspiracy. It is a simple fact that no one wants their private e-mail address advertised and thus I suggested that if any one is interested, contact me a I WILL GIVE YOU THE DETAILS. Now! for the big one, out of interest. Can any one tell us all exactly what is wrong with the gun........... please? Regards LDU |
No one has noticed your beautiful shirt! Not everyone can wear that stuff! Looks GREAT! :cheers:
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LDU,
You did good. You didn't get stuck with this piece and you shared pictures and information. That's great -- Thank you -- Bill |
OK Bill, Here is my read! The serial number indicates it's a 2nd Variation per JCS. Therefore there should be mixed script and gothic S's. I only see script! The WaA should be O-37, not B-90, S-91! The barrel band radius should be sharp, not well radiused. The magazines are all messed up and obviously a restamped fake (WaA should be O-37, not B-90, there shouldn't be the eagle stamp on the magazine bottom and the "S" should be Gothic). There is probably more, but I haven't seen that many (any) K-Date KM's so I can't comment on the Eagle/M Markings!
Bill, let's here the rest!! |
Funny that no one had previously noticed or mentioned that the "S" stamps, and the number fonts on the two "matching" magazines don't even resemble each other... One "S" is smaller than the other and one number font has different serif's than the other...
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Frank,
You did good buddy. Now what about the sideplate and the K on the chamber and the E/M? I've seen a couple of these over the last 5 years and all looked about the same. A guy sent me two K-dates to look at and both were fabricated like this piece. Another guy sent me a picture of a KM Luger and it was like this also but without the E/M on the left panel. He got mad at me when I told him it was a fake and was going to have the guy he bought it from sue me and that it was a "new variation". The same guy who sent me the two to examine said he had a 3rd piece he'd gotten from the same guy that was a 2 matching Navy K-Date. Good job and thanks for the reply. Some of the new collectors can learn a lot from this piece. -- Bill |
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