Need Info on 1918 1920 Luger (Picts)
 

http://www.ofoto.com/BrowsePhotos.js...id=26457391706

This Luger was my grandfather's who brought it back from WWII. I'm trying to find out where and when and whom he got it from by reviewing all the old war documents he has. I suspect he killed a german for it. He had kept it with a german booklet, a badge, the holster, the bullets, the magazine and the tool. It appears that all numbers match. Just wondering if you can help me out by looking at the pictures and also give me a value of the gun. Not looking to sell, but just curious. Thanks, and let me know if the link works.

Seseg99,

From the photos posted you can see that your luger was manufactured near the end of WW1 and has the 1920 Reichswehr property stamp. The weapon was also pressed into police service as evidenced by the sear safety and the Police unit marking on the grip strap and the magazine.

I looked in Gortzâ??s to book (German small arms Markings) in an attempt to identify the Police District or unit, but the third letter is hard to make out and I donâ??t find anything that seems to match.

It appears that you have a nice matching police weapon. Iâ??m not sure about the holster because a lot of police service holsters have stud style closure mechanism, instead of the military style buckle.

I will reserve the value judgements to those like Ed Tinker, or others who collect this type weapon.

Jim

Jim, I assume the number on the magazine is the same as the grip strap and it's clear. A backward J to us non-German speaking folks.
Also, the barrel marking of Eagle over SU25 indicates the barrel has been replaced. Costanzo pg 349.
The pictures show a dot/period punch mark after the serial number in several locations. I've not seen this before. What sort of marking is this????
Thanks,
Tom

Tom, I commented on Jan Stills forum. I "assumed" that it was an Li but Don pointed out it looked more like a backwards J, which no one is sure what it represents.

Value, I would guess $1100 for the entire rig, maybe more, maybe less, one of those things you have to get it into your hands and look at it.

Also, many times weapons were picked up off of the battlefield, or even more likely, picked up prior to leaving the country from the ETO.

Ed

Thanks Ed,
I posted the following over on Jan's so the whole story is in the thread.
The Eagle over SU25 is shown in Costanzo on Pg.349 and listed as being the marking on a replacement barrel.There are two additional Eagle over SU25 on page 82 that are listed as Simpson/Ulbricht proofs for rework, repair and reissue of entire pieces. One of the Eagle markings is the same as the barrel marking on this piece and states "Found on 1918/20 DWM 4" Navy models reworked in 1921". The 2nd Eagle over SU25 which has a different shaped Eagle states "These models were reworked, repaired and reissued in 1933 for Amt. office number 25 military use. Note: Usually found on double dated chamber 1920, 1921".
Anyone ever seen the dot after the serial number???
Tom

I would say I have "never" seen the dot after a number but in the back of mind, I know that isn't true....

And the alphabet I just got from a friend a couple of months ago has a SU25, and so it is interesting to see it so soon, considering I had never seen (maybe should say noticed) it before!

Ed

I have in my collection a DWM 1915/1920 police, grip "S. D. 1. 275.(X'ed R.) and only the side plate has a "dot after the SN. All other parts are matched, just not followed by the "dot"..For waht its worth I hope it helps...would be interested to know if a Weimar army or navy is found so marked

I have a DWM 1916-1920 Police marked Luger with 2 dots punched next to the serial numbers on all the critical points....eg breecblock,barrel etc..I think this was to confirm that these parts passed the rework inspection....I will post photos if anyone is interested....also this particular Luger had been refinished at the same time as the rework and has a bluing on it that is similar to parkerising,very similar to the bluing on a 1925 Simson Luger I had recently...perhaps Simson did these reworks...??

"Dots" show up occasionally in odd places on Lugers. Afaik they are hardness test punches.

--Dwight

I could take that, if the "dots" weren't after a serial number in several places. Why would they test the hardness more than one spot on receiver and frame?

ED

Hardness test points are per Costanzo, found on 1937-1942 Mausers and not noted to be found following serial numbers, and not noted on earlier years of production. Perhaps this is a police "thing"....but I do not think it has a thing to do with hardness. On my one example note, if it were a hardness teat, why only the side plate ?.

Ed,

Perhaps to test hardness consistency throught the piece.

Howard,

Random parts testing. Nothing says its not a police "thing", one way or another.

Here's a picture posted by Thor of a property marked Erfurt (date hasn't survived the archive):

http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/TDDErfurt3.jpg

In another post there is a comment about Thor's K-date with several of these dots.

Here you'll find another one, posted by Herb, look at "side stamp"--no indicatin what the gun is:

http://members14.clubphoto.com/herb5...43/guest.phtml

Here's a previous discussion on the topic:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...=hardness+test

Its true that most of the examples have more than one dot in close proximity.

Here is a picture of the breechblock of my Simson rework of a First Issue Military, it has a dot where one expects to find a firing proof:

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/breechblock.jpg

Couldn't say what this all means, but it does seem to be a fairly extensive practice with no good explanation.

--Dwight

Dwight, not trying to make you mad, but I disagree totally.

The examples you have shown, I would say it is a good chance they are hardness testing... But this example, I see no reason to poke a dot after each serial number. I can't see a consistent dot after each ending of a number to be anything but on purpose?

If a "random" dot equals hardness testing, then it doesn't make sense to take your time and ensure it is after the last number in so many places.

Whether for a certain city or to show a difference in a number (maybe easier to distinguish a same numbered luger by dots, then to mark it with the "3rd" digit ala "The Dutch Luger"?

Ed

http://www.ofoto.com/PhotoView.jsp?U...id=36457391706

Ya. I agree, the dots are def intentional just look a the small number 3 on the metal guide to the right of this picture, why would someone do a hardness test there???

Ed, I'm with you 100% on this, as sesegal99 said this is intentional after serial number, not in a random place on each part....as so far as I can tell only police Lugers.....very interesting, Note DG I said only as far as I can tell its police guns. No fighting here just a good exchange of information, but Ed you know I've never trusted Dwight, liberal media type.....we are getting hammered here with what some are calling the mother of all storms, I live in the desert near Death Valley, and we are getting about an inch of smow right now, 3rd time in almost 40 years!!! my ford 4x4 may not make it to UPS today....best to all :)

Not taking umbrage at anything here (including "liberal media type..."). Hardness dots strike me as similar to the circle-S topic. A profusion of examples, a couple of predominate suppositions, no documentation to support one over another. Proceed at your own risk.

--Dwight

Circle S topic, hmmmm, its me causing the trouble!

Gentlemen,

A nice discussion and I think the dot on the 1920 rework isn't a hardness test, although the dots on regular gun parts most definately are.

I believe this pistol, number 103. had the dot in order to prevent the number being interpreted as 801 (upside down). There is a good chance that the armory this pistol came from simply had a pistol numbered 801, 901 or 601 and the dot was added to secure the gun parts with the correct gun.

A very plausible theory Gerben!

Who would hold a pistol upside down and read its serial #. Nope, this does not compute well....sorry not to be rude.

I was just going through a few more in my collection, I have a 7.65 X'ed out police, with the dot only after SN on side plate and toggle, and gun is 100% matching.....one more for the police theory.

Policeluger: Never underestimate the power of the stupid :D

This practice is quite common and don't forget that many issued pistols spent their Weimar and early nazi days comfortably stacked in racks.

Howard, I think you may have missed the point...not the pistol, but multiple parts laid out on a bench might get confused and the numbers might get read incorrectly upside down...

OK, I'm with you, but again I'll whip the dead horse that these are still only police, if it were nessary to stamp a dot, then were only the police numbered challanged....any other guns out there with this dot other then police....thanks for all the help

Howdy, I'm with the Government, and I'm here to help. I thought I would revive this thread.

Just got a 1921 Army issue ser# 8915 b. The dot theory is about to explode. Photo of sideplate with dot. Here's the run down.


Sideplate > 15 Dot

Extractor > 15 Dot centered below number.

Front toggle > 15 Dot

Rear toggle > 15 Dot

Toggle pin > 15 No Dot

Breech block > Dot 15

Holdopen spring > 15 Dot below 5

Takedown > 15 No Dot

Trigger > 15 No Dot

Transfer bar > 15 Dot


http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/ls_sn_copy1.jpg


Now What:confused:

Ron

I don't think my theory or thought changes. I believe there was either a unit or area of the country that had an edict that if there were weapons of the same serial number, you would "dot" the part to differentiate (sp) it from other parts.

As an example, the Dutch Indies added serial numbers to parts if there were "same" parts at the same unit.

And it happens, by luck but no design, I have three lugers with the last two of 39...

Ed

Ed, This would be my guess too. More than one pistol in the unit with ser# ending in 15.
Ron

PL, I was just joking. I did'nt mean to offend anyone. And I have worked for the Gov't for 32 yrs.


:D :D :D :bigbye: Ron

Any more information on this pistol??

OMG. Nothing, repeat nothing, ever falls through the :thumbsup:cracks here. Well, any more info?
Best to all,
pitsword

I still have it....I can get some really detailed photos if need be now.

oh and by the way...this was in military use....I believe my Grandfather took it from an Officer he killed.

I'd suggest a bunch of photos if you want to jump start the thread on your gun.
dju

Will do

Goodo,
Please keep it going.