Ripped off in Miami
 

I've been defrauded of $1200 by a seller in Miami who goes by the name of Jim Hurley. Would like to hear from a forum member in that area who might be of some help to me. Please e-mail me at neveragain18@sbcglobal.net

Many thanks,
Aaron

Was this a gun deal/gun dealer, would you care to give more info on nature of deal?

This individual Jim Hurley called me on my cell phone, knew me by name, and said he had met me at a gun show a long time ago. I couldn't remember him but I believed him, as I only give my cell number to gun collector friends and acquaintenances. He gained my interest by stating he had a WWII vet friend who had a number of German pistols for sale, and talked about a deal amounting to thousands of dollars. I told him I would buy one pistol (which he swore was mint), a KM marked Mauser, and would deal on the others if this one was satisfactory. I sent him $1200 about five months ago, and never received the gun, just a number of excuses and apologies (car accident, laid up in hospital, thought he had sent it out weeks ago, etc. etc.). He only answers his phone rarely, and only if I call him on weekdays about 6 PM eastern time. I have his phone number, e-mail address, and only a box number for his mailing address. The Florida authorities don't want to talk to me, and the P.O. authorities don't even allow me to talk to a live person. The cops wouldn't even do a reverse search on his phone number to get me his real address. Looks like I need some help at the Miami end.

Aaron -

Have you tried going to www.google.com and simply putting the area code and phone number into the "search" block? If you do this, you can often get back the name of the person, also the complete address, and also a link to a map of the address. Just put the number into the search block like this hypothetical number: 816-295-4102 and then hit the "search" button and see what comes back. This will not work under all circumsatances, but try it and see what you get back.

Ron

Aaron,

Did you get the serial number of the gun you bought?

All gun purchases I make I require the serial number from the seller that way you can say it was "stolen" and report it to the police with the serial number.

I also send a letter with my check FedEx or with the post office as "certified mail" so the seller has to sign for the money, now you have a case with the police. (PO Money Order for guys I don't know)

Many years ago I was "ripped" off by a guy who was known as a thief and the local PD needed that information to recover my property, he got away with it. ... and had sold the same sear to other people. ... I did not have a case!

With the many transactions since that time, only one guy who was not a thief and had legal problems with a restraining order (gun collection confiscated) have I had to contact the local police to get my property back.

It worked and I recovered my guns from the PD after many, many months of hard work.

Wish you the best with the local police, they can't help without information about the property in question.

If the gun belongs to Ron Smith or Ed Tinker I require two forms of ID sent via fax to my office ...... errrr ..... not really ...... just kiddin' !!!

Mark

Ron, he didn't say they had to be the "same" two forms of ID :D


I would try the reverse look ups too, however, cell phone numbers are usually unreliable unless you "pay" a company to retrieve it and it could come back to the same PO box.

That said, it is amazing to me that the PD, local guys won't do anything?

If you know the po box, you can look on mapquest and see what towns are close. You can put in the guys name and towns, and many times it pops up with their local address, unless they have always been unlisted.

There is also www.whitepages.com

Also many Florida counties have real estate records on line from which you can find deeds. mortgages, tax info, etc. (Most of which have addresses.)

I know the Daytona Beach area and the Tampa Bay area have this feature. So if the county (and adjacent counties depending on where he lives) have these, you might be able to find his address that way. Even if the property is not in his name, check the mortgages as spouses have to sign them.




See:

https://www.myfloridacounty.com/serv...er.state.Start

A specific example:

http://www.co.hernando.fl.us/

Aaron, Mark, and Ed -

You will not usually get much help from the police or the Post Office. But every state has a consumer fraud office that will investigate complaints. The toll free number for this office in Florida is 1-866-966-7226. They will not promise you anything, except that if you file a complaint with them, they will investigate it. You will have to fill out a form, which they can mail to you, or if you can download and read a pdf file on your computer, you can just download it and print it off. Everything that has been said above applies, in the sense that you will have to put together a case file that will "stand on its own." By this, I mean that anyone picking up your case file will be able to read it and understand exactly what you are complaining about, and exactly when each alleged incident happened. For example, go back into your cell phone records, and determine when this individual originally contacted you. Include your copy of the money order or the canceled check that you sent to him. Include a copy of your cover letter that you used to forward the money to him. Somewhere in the case file, you need to show the times that you have contacted him, and exactly what he has told you each time. Somewhere in your case file, mention that you think this is especially serious, since it involves a handgun. (this may help to get their attention) You should always send everything by certified mail, with a return receipt requested. If you didn't do that with this money, that can't be helped now, but from here on out, just ensure you send everything by certified mail with a return receipt requested. So send the fraud complaint form, and copies of all your docrumentation (including that part of your cell phone records that shows when he called you, etc.) to the office in Florida by certified mail with a return receipt requested. You will get back a generic letter from them and they will assign an investigator to look into the case. It can take a long time to put together a good case file, and it can take a long time for you to actually get resolution, but since it is a lot of money, it is worth the effort. The state attorney general's office is usually too busy to pursue "small" cases like this. But the investigator can "put the fear of God" into the criminal and they may scare him enough that you will get your money back anyway. I have done exactly what I am recommending you do, and it does work.

Ron

Unbelievable! Google gave me his street address! So howshould I handle this now? Possibly hire a private detective to pay him a visit?

Aaron -

No, I would not waste my time hiring a private detective, because you now have all the information you need.

Briefly, here are the steps I recommend:

1. Draft a letter to him. In the first sentence of the letter, you make the following statement: "The purpose of this notice is to inform you that unless I hear from you within 10 calendar days of your receipt of this letter, I am going to pursue the filing of a complaint of consumer fruad with the State of Florida regarding the manner in which you have defrauded me of $X,XXX.XX. This notice is being sent to you in two identical copies. One is being sent by certified mail with a return receipt requested, and the other is being sent to you by regular first class mail. Under U.S. Postal Service regulations I have a right to assume delivery of the regular first class mail if it is not returned to me. The reasons for this notice are as follows:"

And then you lay out all of your evidence, step by step. When did he call you. What did you tell him. What did he say each time you called him again, etc. Be very detailed and very specific. It doesn't matter how many pages of typing it takes to document beyond a doubt everything that has happened and when it happened, etc. Make sure you mention what type of a handgun it was, etc., because your complaint may be taken more seriously since this is a handgun issue.

The reason you must do this, is you must be able to prove with documentation that you have contacted him and that you have given him a chance to "do the right thing."

Then, you keep one copy of the notice for yourself, and you send the other two copies to him, one by certified mail with a return receipt requested, and the second copy by regular first class mail.

Here is what will likely happen: He will refuse to claim the certified mail, but he will open up the regular first class mail envelope, and then you have accomplished your purpose. Plus, you save the unopened certified mail envelop when it is returned to you marked "unclaimed" because this is further evidence that this man is not responsive.

I would still send both letters to his P.O. Box, because you do not want to tip him off that you already know his home address.

He probably will not believe that you are going to follow through with your promise to file a complaint. So after the 10 calendar days has elapsed, you go ahead and file a complaint with the consumer fraud authorities in Florida. Just do a Google search for this "Consumer Fraud, Florida" and it will take you to the Florida Attorney Generals Office. Read what they have to say. You can get the form they use to receive complaints too. Once you develop your case file and send it to Florida, be sure you also send it by certified mail with a return receipt requested. (Everyone takes certified mail seriously.) Include the home address you got from Google in the file, etc. Specifically tell them you want your money back.

Usually, what will happen is that it will be turned over to the office of the sheriff in the county in which the guy lives. Eventually you will get a generic letter from them that they are working on it, etc.

I would also check the county in which he lives to see if they have their own consumer fraud protection program.

If you will take the time to do this, not only is it very possible you are going to get your money back, but you will also have made it possible for the authorities in Florida to have a record on this fellow's activities. Perhaps you can prevent him from defrauding someone else. I have personally recovered $1,300.00 using just the approach I have outlined here.

You just have to have the persistence and durability of Plutonium 90.

Ron

Ron, I'm grateful for your advice. Will try to do as you recommend.

Aaron

Aaron -

You are welcome. I wish you the best on this.

Ron

Aaron,

Another step to take. This combined with Ron's advice will add some weight. If the mail was used in any form, during this transaction, it constitutes mail fraud.

DO NOT open the Certified Letter if it is returned unclaimed. That way there is no question as to the validity of the letter enclosed. Leave it as received.

http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors...dComplaint.htm

Ron

Aaron,

If you received his FFL or C&R info, you might go on the BATF web site to see if his license number is still valid.

I have had a run in with a fellow in NV State. Before I sent money, we traded FFL's in the mail. I checked his on the web site and saw it had expired...but his signed copy showed a new, current date. Looking at it more closely, the font of the date did not match others numbers on the license. When I saw that, I called off the deal and did not send money.

If you can do this with your Florida fellow and find out his license is bogus, you could even report him to the BATF...so he would get lots of folks looking into his business practices...especially if he ignores your other letters and inquiries for a refund.

Unfortunately, he's not licensed.

Aaron,
give me a call at the office, I'll see what I can do

(772) 220-3922

Jim

Aaron, Did you ever get any satisfaction in this matter? I just came across this thread and noticed that you had no posts since Jim gave you his phone number. I would sure like to know the outcome.

Thanks,

The phone has been disconnected, and I have given up on the $1200. I thank you all for your kind advice, butI don't think there is anything further I can do.

aaron, I have made this a sticky, it has some great infromation in it. I will make it more generic if you'd like.


ed

to send $1200 to someone who says you know him but you cant remember his name and dont even remember meeting him wow" and then to say he is not licensed. im trying hard not say what im really thinking because i dont want to get run off from here. sorry but do you think you might be part of your own problem? im sorry for your loss, i really am. any comments? good or bad.

Well, Aaron knows his name and thought he was being dealt with honestly. I have bought 3 or 4 lugers from new members here over the last 8 years and 2 lugers from guys off of ebay who mentioned they had lugers and another from a friend of a friend. I have not been burnt yet, almost none of them had licenses.


It is a chance you take and I have not received a crappy gun yet, most were shooters and I gave resonable prices, but three were nice guns and I gave them close to $1200.


I guess I am guilable too? But I don't feel that way, perhaps too trusting, but I haven't been burnt yet...


Ed

Ed, Your an honest man, we all know that. but there are people out there who would just as soon rip you off as look at you, they are to lazy to work for a living, so they steal from the trusting. we all have to be carfull who we deal with, it,s a shame but that,s the way it is. "But" no one is going to rip off an ole MP.

I was the victim of a scam because I was greedy. It's greed that makes most people fall for such schemes. I guess it was the offer of a KM Mauser rig for $1200 which made me turn into a sucker. Yes, all the signs were there, no pics available, I never checked on the seller, he seemed to know nothing of what he was selling, etc. He claimed to have met me at a gun show and I took him at his word. My bad......I deserve what happened. Ed, if this can help anyone, use it any way you like.

I met a situation last year. I was an online seller and a buyer tried hard to cheat me. Here is the story:

I had a rifle for sell online asking $780. A guy contacted me saying he wanted it, straight forward, no bargain, he would pay $780 + shipping but he's traveling and his wife would send me a check. I reminded him I need 01 FFL besides $$ to send a gun out. "No problem", he replied.

The check arrived in a few days. Weird enough, it's a AT&T company check and the amount was not $800, it's $4000. This guy even called me explaining the mistake -- he bought two guns, $800 & $4000, and his stupid wife sent me the wrong check. He asked me to deposit this check and he trusted "You are honest and would refund $3200 back to me".

Actually, the cheating situation was obvious here (when I looked back). However, the desire to sell this gun out blinded my eyes, and I did not reject the transaction immediately. I told him the check must be cleared before I refund anything, and the gun could only be sent to a 01 FFL holder. He said he would be back to home in a few days and find a transfering dealer.

The check was deposited and the annoying part started. This guy kept pushing me to refund him via "Western Union" (wire transfer), and gave me detail steps on how to do that with great patience. I re-evaluated the situation, felt very uncomfortable with this type of transaction and decided to cancel it. So I informed him transaction cancelled, and his original $4000 check would be sent back to him.

It took the bank almost two weeks to find that check being a fake one. The bank sent me a photocopy of that check later. Of course, I did not have to pay postage to send it back.... his address was fake as well.

Some emails are still in my InBox. The amount on the check was 3800. Now I remembered. Even without assuming anything else, it's abnormal senario to see a buyer instructing a seller what to do next. But I was not alerted at that time.

Email #1
======

Thanks for your message.. I will want you to kindly remove the list from GA because i am ready for the instant purchase. I will instruct my wife to send out the check and also send the FFL as soon as possible to you because i am presently on my way out of country to United Kingdom(UK) on a business trip.She will be sending out a cashier's check on your name and send it to your provided address as soon as possible.. I will call her later when i get to UK to know if she has sent it and i will keep you updated asap.

Hope to read from you soon when the item is removed.

Regards
David Garcia.



Email #2
======
Hello,

This is what i came with from my Wife.... the certified cashier's check has been sent for sure but there was a mistake because i actually told her to send check to two people for me(you and a friend) now she made a mistake by sending the check that is suppose to be sent to you to my friend and the one to be sent to my friend to you. I blamed her a lot for this silly mistake and i think i can trust you with this... The check that suppose to be sent to my friend is with the amount of $3800. Now in order not to delay the transaction once you just get the check of $3800 please just go ahead and cash it and deduct payment for your item and you can help me send the rest to my friend or my Wife.. I believe that is the best way not to delay the transaction because the check has been sent already.

Please i want your trust and honesty in this...Please you can reach me on this number +447024091442 in case you have any urgent message to deliver to me or send me an email.

Hope to read from you as soon as possible.
David Garcia

I had a very similar set of circumstances last week-which I did not fall for- when selling a framed set of Player's Cigarette Cards, "Aircraft of the RAF 1938" last week. The dead give away is the "Send the difference by Western Union". That is like sending cash through the mail and even less safe.

Tom A

It is a common scam in security circles; and folks get bilked out of hundreds or thousands of dollars. They'll suck you in even more by suggestting, hey, keep an extra $50-$100 for your trouble, so it seems even more legit.


I hate criminals and scam artists, they should be.... Well, Tom knows what should happen to them ;)



Ed

Iboos,

We all do foolish things from time to time. No one needs their nose rubbed in it afterward.

davidkachel, what foolish thing are you talking about? i was just making a comment. i did not mean to offend any one. but thank you for your opin.

Gentlemen, This is why scams work for so long. We don't want to get our nose rubbed in it. It's embarrasing to tell the World you were robbed. I say shout it from the rooftops and expose any and all of these bandits and their methods. The more we talk it over (politely) we can learn from others and help to keep from making mistakes we have heard about here.

So far it is very productive and I don't enjoy reading about anyones troubles but learn from them.

As far as Ed not being ripped off...Yet. It's like an accidental discharge for shooters. Not a matter of if... but when and how bad. You cannot be too cautious. One other reason I so enjoy dealing with fellow collectors.

Jerry Burney

I would get on a plane and pay him a "visit"

They relocate like cockroaches.......

Aaron,
Thx for sharing your ugly experience with us. Hopefully the tough lesson that you've learned will benefit all of us. I think Jerry is correct in that it is almost inevitable for any and/or all of us to get scammed at some point in time. It seems that the cheaters are pretty creative and are working much harder than any of us to gain an unfair advantage. Stories like this help to socialize the pitfalls of collecting via the Internet and through the mail and are good lessons learned.
Lyn

You have to keep in mind that a "confidence" man survives precisely because he is adept at deception and gaining another's confidence.
If he was not skilled in his trade, he would go out of business.

As we become more wary, they become more adept at confidence building.
Sort of like the virus/anti-virus computer cycle.

If you are not as skilled at avoiding these kinds of scams, it is easy to be prey to them. Unfortunately, looking for trouble is the only way to see it before it happens.

This is the reason also that "cashier checks", "official checks" etc. are no longer good-as-cash. A few years ago, I tried to cash one, at my own bank, and was asked for my account number. When I said it shouldn't be needed on a cashier check, the teller said it could still come back on them, and thus on me. In other words, it really is no different on the receiving end from any other check, although they have to be paid for with secured funds on the purchase end. Assuming that they are not bogus from the get-go - which is the problem - until clearance, they may prove forged.

The latest scam sweeping the country is bogus company checks from large corporations such as ATT, IBM, etc.
It gives receivers inmediate confidence that the check is good since it is seemingly backed by a multi-million dollar corporation and a convincing check can be dummied up by anybody with access to a good printing facility.
Never accept at face value a corporate check from anybody you don't know and especially if it is for more than the amount of the transaction in question.

Aaron,

I live in Miami. What was the full name and address that came up for this individual? I can ask around the gun community here and if he is still around perhaps embarrass him into paying up.

This all presents an interesting general issue which is: how can Internet buyers and sellers of little stuff (like Lugers) get justice when things go wrong? The answer is that our courts are poorly equipped to handle these cases, but there is progress here and there.

A victim could simply sue the offender in the victim's local JP court, or equivalent. There are issues, of course. Service is an issue, to be sure, but not insurmountable, interstate service of process is do-able. Successful service alone may do the trick - most coherent adults will move to take care of things once a lawsuit is actually served.

Jurisdiction comes next, and the subject of so-called "long arm" jurisdiction as to internet sales is a swiftly moving stream, however courts do seem to be warming to the idea that a person who knowingly sells to another in another state can reasonably expect to be haled into court in that state. Some recent opinions seem to be lowering the bar to interstate suits over Internet transactions. The picture is best described as "muddy".

But if you actually did get a judgment against a bad guy, then he is the one who has to deal with the mud - and you could possibly collect in the the bad guy's state before he can do so. Again, a small flock of civil procedure issues, but not insurmountable, and the judgment debtor could be made to pay for the surmounting.

Many JP courts these days make it easy to file a lawsuit yourself, and have forms and checklists to guide you. The wave of the future for Internet justice? Hard to say. But might be worth a try in some situations.

H

The above is not legal advice but, rather, speculative ramblings on abstract legal theory. Consult a licensed attorney in your state if you want actual legal advice on a real case.

Well, you do not need to consult with an attorney if you chose to file a complaint of consumer fraud. Every state will have procedures for dealing with complaints of consumer fraud, and the process is totally free. To find out what they are in the state where the seller lives, use "Google" to search "consumer fraud, (name of the state where the seller lives)" And remember, once a buyer can show that fraud has been committed, the so-called three-day time limit for return of the item is invalid.

Mauser720 - Ron

Sir,
I was employed with the US Postal Service for over 26 years. I have also worked with the Postal Inspectors on numerous occasions to retrieve my money sent by US Mail to another State.

I suggest you find a Postal Inspectors Office and register your complaint with a real person. Most large MSC's (Mail Sectional Centers) have an Inspectors office. Take your original documentation (phone #'s & records, addresses, names, dates, receipts, etc.) with you. However, give the Inspector COPIES of everything. You will also need to write the facts of everything that occured cronologically. If it takes a week and 5 pages, so be it. Be as detailed as possible. You are essentailly starting your own case file.

Once a complaint has been filed, the Inspection Service legally must investigate the events and talk to the offender and remedy any fraud situation whether monitarilly or legally charging him.

It takes about 2-3 months before results but you will get your money. You will need to stay in touch with the agent in charge of your case file.

Remember this, YOU have to do the work BEFORE talking with the Inspectors.

Good luck whether you eat the loss or use your trusted Government Agency. Wow! Part of that sounds like a joke doesn't it?

Aaron:

I friend works a computer company and says there is no telephone number that he can put and name and address too.

I would like to prove him wrong.

George