30 Luger Cartridge Conversion
 

30 Luger Cartridge Conversion

This has come up a couple times, so I thought I'd write up what we old fudds did back in the '70's, when there was no 7.65mm Luger, 7.63mm Mauser, or 7.62 x 39 Russian [SKS/AK-47] ammunition available...

We'd make it, using Donnelly's Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions as a guide. For the pistol cartridges, we'd start off with a suitable pistol and a box of new unprimed .223 Remington cases.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=1521

We would cut the cases down, on a lathe with a mandrel, or in this case, with a mini-pipe cutter, to ~.010" overlong.

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We would face off the cutdown case to length [1.175" here] in a case trimmer.

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The sharp edges would be broken with a deburring tool.

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Full length sizing in an RCBS resizing die to form. Lube case well.

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Case is now trimmed to desired length, either with or without a pilot, whichever works best.

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Case is also neck reamed w/.308" reamer.

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Full length sized once again with neck expander attachment in sizing die.

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On to the bullet. I used a FMJ 30 Carbine bullet back then, 110gr weight.

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I made up a jig to hold the 30 cal bullets, and drilled them out to whatever weight required (93grs here, using a 5mm drill). Jig is simply two strips of aluminum clamped together and drilled for the bullets. In use, you insert the bullets and clamp the jig in a drill press vise.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=1538

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Weight is now 93 grs. RCBS has chamged their scales a bit over the years; took me a while to figure this one out...

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Cases are now primered. Small pistol primers used.

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For this presentation, I only had Hercules Blue Dot powder available, so I decided to use 5.0grs of Blue Dot for my starting load.

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The drilled-out bullet is seated to an OAL ~1.170", with a crimp on the case mouth. This takes a bit of experimentation to get it just right.

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Loaded cartridges ready to shoot.

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They will fire-form to final shape in the chamber, and can be expected to have the same lifespan as any other reloaded cartridge.

I've found that military cases have thicker bases and thicker walls than commercial cases, and require more reaming/sizing.

They also will hold less powder without compressing than the commercial cases. The extended carbine bullet also cuts down on case capacity, so a powder that takes up less space is desirable.

Note: For historical use only; I take no responsibility for any data posted. Always start with minimum loads, and wear eye and ear protection.

Donnelly also suggests using cut down 38 Special cases, with rim turned down, and extractor groove cut. The .223 Remington cases were simpler (no lathe work required).

Rich, Very nicely done article. I enjoyed reading it. I love projects like this but don't have the time for too many.
The blue dot load you used...05 grains..did you ever fire one? That might be pretty weak from what I remember about Blue Dot!

Thanks..

Jerry

Yes; in fact, if you look at the last pic, the crimp is a bit too pronounced...but I did these three just for S&G...I'll adjust my crimp later, when I start running batches through...


...5.0 grs... :thumbup: I think it was Hugh's data I was looking at and 7.5grs was suggested...I wanted to go low for starters, but 6.0grs looked like it might be a compressed load, so I backed off a grain...Both gun shops were closed yesterday [New Years] and today, I couldn't get any other powder and Blue Dot is all I had left here...

I'll fire these three off today or tomorrow...I was going to try a water shot too, and recover the bullet to see what it looked like...

Rich, I have always used Red Dot for most of my loading. 5 Gr. is about what I use for 9MM .45 and .38 Special as I remember but it might be 4.5. Mostly for economy because almost any other powder uses more grains per load. Also because I didn't have to change my powder thrower..just used the same for all three.

Ted Green (Thor) recommended Blue Dot to me for 9MM Artillery loading years ago..swore by it.

Again, A really fine article!

Jerry

Jerry, Red Dot was what I was looking for. :thumbup:

Lyman's 45th Ed lists Red Dot at 3.9 grs for 93 gr FMJ to start. They also list 3.5 grs Bullseye, but I have never liked Bullseye...too dirty for me... :mad:

Rich, Right you are..Red Dot is clean burning and bulllseye leaves unburnt powder in the chamber for me. There are many more modern powders I suppose but Red Dot has always worked so why change?

Jerry

Rick, I could never see the need for "forming" die sets. Even when I form 38-45 Clerke, I use the reloading/resizing dies to "form" my cases. Yes, I do crunch maybe 1 in 20, but that's acceptable. ;)

Prices on RCBS forming AND reloading die sets from Huntington for obscure calibers like 30 Luger, 30 Mauser, 8mm Nambu are ridiculous...You can literally pay more for the die set than the pistol... :mad:

I'm aware that reloading is not for everyone, and that in this world of disposable commodities we now seem to live in that re-using fired cartridges might seem a waste of valuable time.

But reloading is a way to get the most accuracy from any firearm. Once you decide on a firearm, and a bullet, you can start experimenting with powders. Assuming you are proficient enough to shoot repeatable strings of shots, say groups of five, you can vary the powder charge up or down to see just where the "sweet spot" is for that firearm/bullet combination. You may go from 4.5 grs up to 7.5 grs (for example) shooting 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards...and then, at 6.0 grs, you shoot a 3/4" group...Repeatably...That is the perfect powder charge for that firearm/bullet! :thumbup:

There is also the matter of availablity. Some old calibers aren't available any more. 8mm Nambu, for example. Luckily, because of the efforts of wildcatters, there is information available to make these old calibers from readily available brass. (8mm Nambu can be made from 30 Remington brass cut down).

There is also the factor of cost. Reloading can cut down the cost of shooting, since primers, powder, and bullets can be bought in bulk. Brass also, and it is not unusual for me to get 10 reloads out of one shell (or more).

RCBS makes an excellent "Rock Chucker Master Reloading Kit" containing pretty much all the hardware you'll need to reload, and eBay is a ready source for used die sets. I do batch reloading, meaning I take 50 or 100 fired cartridges and perform the reloading steps on that batch all-at-once, one step at a time. I can de-prime & resize while watching TV and waiting for dinner to cook, for example. Then stick those shells away until I feel like priming them; again, all 50 or 100 at once. I tried a 6-position turret press, and did not like it. Too much going on at once; too easy to make a mistake. YMMV. :D

GREAT Article on making .30 brass... I will sticky this thread!

Great info on a little known subject. Thanks!

Charlie

This certainly brings back memories. I got into it to make 7.63 Mauser cases. At the time I preferred 222 Rem and 221 Fireball brass because they were thinner than the military cases.

Since my C96 liked to throw cases forward, I spent more time hunting for them than I did shooting. After that much effort I did not intend to lose any.

Then Midway had a sale on bulk brass with their headstamp. I bought two thousand 7.63s and one thousand 9mm Steyr. No more hunting under rocks and weeds for me.

A genuinely fun article, well described with great pix.
Thanks.

i do not own one but a old handloaders digest says 8mm nambu can be made from 41 long colt.I know that Starline makes this brass.

Cool!!! James - If you could scan that article, there are some Nambu T14 owners here who would be interested... :)

Hello??? :confused:

41 Colt Long cartridge is rimmed - I turn the rim off of rimmed [revolver] cases in my lathe, before cutting the extractor groove for a semi-auto...

How does this article describe doing it???

Edit: We lost James...Fell off the face of the Earth, apparently...OR...Abducted by aliens??? :eek:

Reloading is better covered in any one of the many books put out by the bullet manufacturers, so I won't go into the specifics here. But I re-arranged my basement work space and relocated my RCBS reloading press to my Harbor Freight 3in1 workcenter. This allows me to watch TV while reloading. :)

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=2746

This is most of the reloading tools I use. I grouped them all together for a photo shoot; I don't use them all at the same reloading session. I 'batch' reload, meaning I'll run 50 or 100 cases through a specific procedure (full length resize; deprime; prime; charge; seat bullet) in one session, then shut down and do something else. I'll space the sessions out over three or four nights, to keep fatigue from becoming a factor in my reloads. ;)

I also occasionally try a new powder, or a new (to me) caliber, and to tailor the reload to that particular powder/bullet, I'll size & prime a number of cases and carry a small amount of powder and bullets to the range for a 'test' session. I'll charge the cartridges with a 'starting load' of powder, and seat the bullets on-site with a Huntington Die Specialties 'backpack' reloading press.

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This allows me to do a quick powder charge right on the range, and vary the powder load to get a 'good' grouping & satisfactory functioning of the firearm. I can then go back home and do my 'batch' reloading for that firearm, and be reasonably sure that the resultant reloads will give me the same consistent results that I obtained in the 'test' firing session. :thumbup:

I noticed your case trimmer is a forester the same as mine. I converted mine to take more brass off faster for case forming.
I don't have any TV but play old cassette tapes once in a while.
Nice setup you have.

It's not as nice as my old house. :( But it's what I got.

The Forster case trimmer is very nice. I've had this one since the '70's...When I bought the new RCBS Rockchucker reloading 'kit' from a GB seller several years ago, it came with the RCBS case trimmer. I've never used the RCBS because I got used to this one, and have several pilots and reamers for it. I think I have another collet too. :)

Does your drill attachment have a 'flex' joint, or a universal of some kind??? (I used to have a drill like that...Inherited from my father)... :D

I bought 2 of these old drills at a garage sale about 15yrs ago for $1.00, I can't remember what I did with the other one but it was identical. What that is, is a bolt with the head hacked off into the drill and the threads mated up to where the handle was on the trimmer. 3 nuts holding it all together. I rig up things because I'm a cheapskate. I built a case tumbler out of another old drill and a coffee can. I even built a homemade drill press before I bought a real factory one cheap at a yard sale. Hey? I just remember where that other drill went!:) The homemade press built out of a hand drill a bed frame and an old car jack.:D

You're looking at my lathe with a plywood shelf on the bed and the press bolted to the table. It all comes off in less than 2 minutes, including putting it away. It's not the best I could do, but it's 'good enough'. ;)

I was out today trying to get some IMR 4895...Only place left that sells powder locally was full of yahoos wasting the proprietor's time...I waited ten minutes and left. The line hadn't moved. :banghead:

I'll try my regular LGS tomorrow. (He's closed Mondays). If he doesn't have any, I'll try ordering from Midway. They have a couple things I been meaning to get anyway... :mad:

Very very cool!! But I missed one step -- how did you create that bottleneck on the case? On picture #6, it's straight case, and it's bottlenecked case on picture #7. Was that done by the RCBS resizing die?

...As I wrote -

So, yes. :)

I've read references here to 'having' to buy 'forming dies' to make wildcat cases (or in this case a pistol case from a rifle case). I have done and still do form my cases in the reloading/sizing die. I have never seen the need for a 'forming' die. The hardest wildcat I've had to make, the 38-45 Clerke, still forms quite easily if you use virgin brass and lube it liberally. :thumbup:

(As far as I can tell by looking, 'forming dies' are simply reloading dies with the interior machine operations left out.)

Annealing the mouth area of the cases would make re-forming easier. I think the forming itself might re-harden the material sufficiently. Anybody ever try this?

I had RCBS make me a reforming die to reform 44-40 brass into 38-40 brass. It took about a month to get it. I don't know what steel that they use in these reforming dies but boy it is HARD!! A file will not touch it. This die is designed so that one can saw/file the excess brass neck of the 44-40 brass while still in the reforming die, and not hurt the die. This is the only one that I own.

I had some spare time today, so I ran a small number of .223 Remington and 38 Special brass cartridge cases through the conversion process. (These are for 30 Mauser/30 Tokarev, but 30 Luger is exactly the same process). So, here we go again!!! :roflmao:

First is the .223 Remington cases -

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Raw fired cases; cutting them to length with a parting tool in the lathe; Short case parted off; raw short 30 cal cases...

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Sizing the short cases to form the bottleneck; trimming them to final length; chamfering/breaking inner & outer edges; finished 30 cal cases.

Cases can also be cut to approximate length with a mini-pipe cutter -

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I next did some 38 Special cases, to 30 cal -

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Turning the rim off; finished rim; Cutting the extractor groove; chamfering the groove. I didn't want to spend the time grinding a cutoff tool to the correct profile, so I just ran the wide cutoff bit in at an angle.

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Sizing in the full-length 30 cal sizing die; chucking the sized cases in the Forster case trimmer; cases cut to final length; comparison of .223 Remington/38 Special/30 cal Starline finished cases.

I chucked the cases in the lathe using a drill bit for a mandrel and set the tailstock/live center to the required length. I also used the drill bit/mandrel while parting. There were a few steps I didn't bother photographing, such as lubing before sizing; de-priming; measuring length; etc.

Finished cases are now ready for reloading! :thumbup:

Here's the specs on .223 Remington vs 30 Luger cartridge cases.

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There are other cases close enough to work, but (like the 38 Special) may require extra work.

I generally fire mild loads in reworked cases the first time, to 'fire form' them to final configuration.

Dave, I've read about sitting fired cases in water and heating the necks with a torch to anneal them, but I've never tried it.

Huntington Die Specialties makes all the dies for RCBS, it's usually faster to just contact them directly.

The steel in the dies is [IIRC} 8500 series steel; you can heat it to cherry red and let it cool slowly to 'un-harden' it. They can then be machined. I've cut down a couple of dies this way. :)

All old/obsolete reloading tech. There's easier ways to do it, but this has gotten me this far, so I've resisted change (so far!) :D

I tried the drill on the case trimmer; I'm still mulling over whether it's worth adopting that... :rolleyes: But a big Thank You! to patronen for sharing the idea!!! ;)

I have turned .223 into 7.62 tok in almost the same way using the same type of pipe cutter. I did it mostly as an experiment to see if I could. It worked but I was reloading for the CZ-52 which has a tight chamber and the spin test of every round was annoying me so I gave up after making up a couple dozen rounds. I case form the same way in regular dies. I was given a bunch of .30-06 and .270 casings awhile back and have made from both those parent cases 8mm Mauser, 7.65 Argentine, 7x57, .308 and 7.7 Jap which is actually a slightly smaller rim diameter but will usually work.

Here is a pic of a homemade case tumbler

I don't know what a spin test is but I see you have another antique drill motor!!! :D

I made up the 30 Mauser brass for my Serbian M57, which I haven't shot yet. I had some commercial brass left over so I made some 7.65 Luger for my Star BM. :cheers:

30 Luger at top, 30 Mauser at bottom, two for comparison in middle. :)

The spin test is slang pertaining to the CZ52 and usually surplus 7.62 ammo. The chamber is tight on the CZ52 and some of the cases are sometimes too wide and too long to properly seat. So some people that shoot surplus in a CZ52 will pull out the barrel and take each cartridge to see if it fits before using if not there can be stoppages at the range and it's a PITA. I gave up shooting surplus in the CZ52 for 2 reasons, the one above mentioned and the variaing powder charges that can happen in surplus. When forming the .223 case into 7.62Tok I had the barrel next to the reloading bench to make sure the length of the case with seted bullet would drop in, after about 25 rounds and a few failures in some hours I felt buying Selior and Belliot 7.62Tok to shoot and reload or Starline cases may be the better way to go.
Case annealing is something I have not done, I don't shoot heavy charges and since alot of the brass was obtained next to nothing I feel a case that splits can go into the trash.
As Rick W has said there is quite a few steps to turn for example .270 into .308 using regular dies it can be done if you turn it first into another caliber or sometimes 2 on your way down, fun for the challenge to say you did it but not at all practical for quantity in my opinion when using a simple single stage press.:)

There was a time in the early '70's when you could not find 7.63 Mauser or 7.65 Luger brass, loaded ammunition, or even old surplus anywhere...making it was the only way to shoot an old firearm...I got into cartridge conversion/wildcats when I had my first 45 Colt Auto and wanted to shoot the 38-45 Clerke out of it. That led me into chamber reaming and case forming. I also had a Chinese rifle that shot 7.62 x 39 and there was no ammo available for that either. * But .223/5.56mm cases were all over the place, you couldn't walk 10 feet on the range without stepping on them. So that got used to make just about everything. I still find once-fired .223 brass at the local range (along with police 9mm). Hey - If it's free, it's for me! :roflmao:

I have a 7.63 Mauser/7.62 Tokarev chamber reamer if you want to see if that chamber will open up a bit... :D

I lose one out of five expended cases in our indoor range...No idea where those 5 - 10 cases go...I sweep diligently, check corners, under benches, even get a chair and check the light fixtures...Nothing... :grr:

I mentioned it to the club president some time back and they put up screens between stations to keep the brass close to you...


* There was a gunsmith who had two boxes [20 rds each] of some Finnish 7.62 x 39 left from some exotic rifle he built...I bought them, but the price was exorbitant...And I couldn't find any more... :(

I find that surprising, as the .223 case is dimensionally smaller in diameter than the 7.62 Tokarev. It should drop in with a bit to spare, and still fire-form to fit that particular barrel... :confused:

The surplus 7.62 would give problems with variances of being to long and to wide at times. Alot of the surplus 7.62 Tok packed in those 70 quantity boxes were probably destined originaly for PPSH41/43 duty and would function fine and from what I hear through the Tokarev pistols too. But I have noticed with the CZ52 the tolerances are tighter. When forming the .223 into 7.62 I wanted to be sure each cartridge/bullet seating length was going to drop in the barrel. I did not want to make up a bunch that would not function

Since i had a bunch of 30 Mauser cases ready to load (and some Red Dot!), I decided to make up some 84/85gr FMJ bullets, starting with 110gr Carbine bullets. I drilled them out with a 7/32" drill bit in my home made fixture to 84/85gr... :)

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=2754

Much fun! :roflmao:

I bet that those "hollow based" Carbine bullets will obturate like gangbusters when fired. I believe that what is being called the spin test is the same as what many call the "plunk test".

Nope. They fire out with no problem and leave nice small round holes in targets. :)

I been making & shooting these for 40 years. ;)

Dave, I hear whatcher sayin'... :D

I have a worn C96 Mauser Broomhandle that will fire my cut-down .223 cartridges, but when I reload those fired cases and try them in my 7.62 Serbian M57, they won't go all the way in...So to correct this, I make sure the case length is trimmed to under .990" and then run them through the 30 Mauser sizing die and then I run them through a .223 sizing die...Then they will slide right in [when loaded]...

I'm making up a small batch of 30 Luger brass today, using once-fired PSD 84 military brass...Military brass has a crimped primer pocket, so removing the crimp is an extra step...And military cases have thicker walls, so the necks will need to be reamed...I measure .011" neck wall thickness on new/unfired Winchester-Western 30 Luger cases, and these PSD 84 cases have a .016" neck wall thickness [when trimmed & formed but before reaming]...More extra steps vs commercial .223 Remington brass... :(

Another tip I got from somewhere years ago is if you run out of Case Lube go to your local hardware/auto parts store and get some STP Oil Treatment and use that instead...Quicker & cheaper... :)

I want to load my 7.65 x 53 Argentine Mauser and while I have some brass, I can't find any distributor with powder...I want IMR 4895 or 4064 plus a pound of Red Dot for the Luger/Mauser, and I tried Midway, Natchez, Midsouth, and Cabelas and none of them have 4895 and only one listed Red Dot...I was planning on ordering some primers and .303 British brass and some more .223 Remington brass with the powder...My two local LGS's have no powder I want either... :mad:

To make things worse, my local LGS tells me that starting in January, NYS residents buying powder will have to submit to a NICS check before they can buy the powder... :soapbox:
It looks like my cartridge cases will sit quite a while before I can load them... :grr:

I been digging through all my old boxes (I moved 18 years ago; not everything is unpacked yet) and found a conversion I did many years ago...A C96 Mauser re-barreled for a .256" wildcat cartridge... :)

My usual .223"/5.56mm cartridge cases cut down so that OAL will be the same as a 30 Mauser (which this once was). .256 Winchester Magnum chambering reamer in a .256" barrel blank turned down & threaded into a 30 Mauser receiver. It was much longer originally (I posted a pic of it back then) but I shortened it for convenience. Also to retain what little hearing I have left - This cartridge made a really loud crack... :D

RCBS .256 Winchester Magnum die set cut down to '30 Mauser' size...I fired off most of my reloads, had a couple left over...

I didn't mean that there would be a problem with shooting your "hollow based" bullets, actually quite the opposite. With that base, when fired, I feel sure that they will obturate/swell and give an excellent sealing to the chamber/bore and experience no bullet blow-by of powder gases. They should perform very well.

I thought it was in this thread, but I don't see it...Anyway, someone commented on milling the bullets instead of drilling them...I couldn't do that with the drill fixture (holes are too deep) so I made a new fixture...

Two strips of 3/8" aluminum drilled & pinned and then top & bottom milled flat. Four 5/16" holes drilled with a .022" plastic strip as spacer between them, to allow for clamping.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=2758

Fixture with four .110" dia M1 Carbine bullets clamped in position. I milled every .020" and weighed between cuts. The final measurement was .115" to get a ~86gr bullet.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=2759

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Final weighing before starting run. 86.2grs...Close enough!

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Comparison of 85gr Tokarev bullet, my shaved 86gr carbine bullet, and 110gr carbine bullet.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=2762

I chamfered the bottom edge with a file to ease loading, but I think I will make a 'cap' that will press a round edge on the bottom...

I also want to make a run of 95gr cut-down carbine bullets... :)

Ran some more Midway .308" dia 30 Carbine FMJ bullets through the mill today...Made these ~93gr, for the Luger...

I'll call these milled bullets 'shavetails'... :roflmao:

First two are 'shavetails', last is OEM Midway 30 Carbine...

For more comparison, a Sierra .308"/85gr was .536" OAL, and a Tokarev 'pull' was .307"/85gr and .542" OAL...

I thought I had a 5/16" radiused edge end mill, but I can't find it, so I'll have to make do with a chamfered-by-file base on my 'shavetails'... :D

Rich..VERY cool! Nice job and lovely presentation.