The First Test Trials Luger reunited with the Ideal Stock
 

The Ideal test stock has been reunited with the original Luger #5673. The stock was discovered in Jan. 2021 in Chocorua, a small town in NH. It came from an estate of a very wealthy gentleman who,s family owned a famous name coffee company. All firearms were removed and many years later a barn on the property was found loaded with rare ammo and accessories to other firearms. At this time the purchaser of the load offered me the Ideal Luger stock. Seeing the U.S. Property marks and a flaming bomb on the stock and also the serial numbers 5673 I wondered if it had anything to do with the Trials Lugers. I have a large number of WW! and WW!! PO8s including several American Eagle models. I then contacted the Luger Forum and that is the beginning of the reuniting of the 2 pieces. It will now be up to Col. Mark Rendina to finish the story and post pictures. I would like to that all who chimed in including the naysayers who thinks it,s a fake. Banjomike AKA Mike Hashem Old Post Office Antiques, Ossipee NH

As I stated, you never know.

What is known and what is not known of early luger happenings at a depot, or department of the army is unknown. Wanting some proof is not being a naysayer. I doubt many things because i have seen some very nice fakes in the luger world.
1. I have seen a good friend of mine make an exact copy of a ideal stock - almost impossible to tell from an original.
2. I have seen fantasy pieces made for fun, but years later they are touted as real.
3. I have seen a very nice Argentine crest on a luger that we know was faked, and many others like it.

Fakes have been coming out of the wood work for 50 years, they simply have.
I don't think pictures are very hard to master if you want to do it (I am 61, so no, I did not grow up with computers)
..
.

And that is 'bang on' wisdom Ed. :)
I have a favorite saying that I use for these situations.

"Every coin has 2 sides AND an edge !! The truth usually resides on the edge."

As Mike states, the 1900 luger serial no 5673 (with Ideal Grips) was separated long ago.
Luger found at auction in 2013.
This ideal Stock (mike's) was found only in Jan 2021...in the same geographic area of the original auction.
Mike is someone unknown to me....I do not believe he is a faker. The serial and bomb exactly match the luger (with period Serifs) covered by ancient patina as you will see in the photos when I post them. Out of town right now.
Since they were both separated long ago....a fake stock would have to be faked back in the 1900s when they got separated.
That clearly did not happen..since no one wants to fake a US test luger that had no value until..what the 1990s?
And they were both in separate ownership.....
Unless, as Mike said, the wealth family sold the guns in 2013 (when I got the luger) and all teh small part accessories were kept until sold recently.
The fact that 2 separate collectors unknown to each other found the original gun and stock, 8 years apart, speak to authenticity.

This forum exist primary to make discoveries like this.
How many lugers that sell for 100,000 bucks have any paperwork at all?????
How many lugers have any factory paperwork at all?????
I sold a "Royal" presentation 1902 carbine for 80K ....with no documentation at all.
?
Why? because it was original blue and looked like it was expected to look for bining real...but no one knows to what crowned head (letter "A") it belonged to....thats only speculation. Did not matter. 80K.
Proof of royal provenance????? zero.
Fact. So paperwork and documentation is not THE ONLY issue here...and its a false choice to demand paperwork on an early 1900 that otherwise perfectly fits the First US TEST characteristics and US property markings.

So you look at the blue. real close.
You look at the patina. Real close..under a scope.
You look at the period serial number in the correct range (pre-6200 test range). and you look at the 1900 era serifs with 120 year old halos.

Yep thats what we do.
And we keep an open mind.
Since anything else is an attempt to stifle speech and hate on fellow collectors...based on if you like the guy or not...fellow collectors who are honest, collecting for 40 years.... and stand more than a 50% chance of having found the first US test Luger.

So lets start again at the beginning of the logical process (since we are not going to find a document..so we have to use logic.).

First we have to read the only documents that exist on the First US Test...most people here skip this reading assignment. See them below...enjoy.
Second, it has to be a luger made before serial 6200 (the start of the 1000 test range).
Third it has to be a gun made after #5600 to fit into the correct production time range to arrive at Springfield Arms test site in April 1901.
Forth, the Test Luger should have several hammer blows (see document where it was stated that they hit the toggle several times in the function test!!!). I know..we all got a hammer. But not so fast!
Age from deformation cannot be faked..its a chemical process when the deformations change color only due to age. A deformation on a blued surface remains blue for the first 40 years.

A hammer blow made recently will not turn the blue brown. Only age does that. Gun has no value until say 1980s...when anyone thought to even look for it.

These Blows...about 20 ...show brown patina in bright light.

Fifth, if the gun and stock were separated long ago..and brought together separately from another independent collector"s efforts...then it speaks to authenticity. Was not my doing...Ron Wood had to contact me personally to say some guy found my stock etc.

Agreed we are only following logic here?

Serial number #5673 (photos below) fits these conditions exactly...
AND SHOULD THUS NOT BE DISMISSED OUT OF HAND WITH CONTEMPT.

With the discovery of the stock independently of my own efforts, IMHO establishes a more than 60% probably of being authentic.

I agree its not 100% proof...but is that even possible?????????????????

Bottom line??? It is a great find and no future book on lugers or US test trail can ever ignore the existence of 1900 Test #5673...especially now that its serialized stock has been found with the exact same fonts and "US PROPERTY" with extreme patina and authentic age.

More photos...stock photo to follow

Awful lot of conjecture...

open mind!
 

I have been studying the pictures and am stuck right in the middle of, "can't be, and can be!" It all looks period correct, and is stamped rather well for a one shot deal? There are far better judges of originality than I, on this forum. The one thing that continually nags me to this point is logistics? If the gun is a pre test serial range prototype, and made and numbered in Germany, how does it end up with the Ideal grips (made in the US!) sporting a matching serial number in the correct, identical DWM font? That would mean, prior to subjection and shipping to the US military a request and procurement order as to the availability of the Idea set would be necessary? Also, if somehow numbered in Germany, then why the flaming bomb ordinance mark? And, why so many? Lots to consider, more study needed... Still pretty neat all on it's own.... best to all, til....lat'r....GT:jumper: One fact for sure: Idiots with hammers is not a recent new phenomena!!......:eek:

If they stamped the flaming bomb on the gun why did they only stamp US property on the grips?
Why didn't the the gun get stamped US property as well?
It looks like the same bomb stamp was used on the grips and the gun.

Very interesting. Some more close up photos of the gun would be worthwhile. Frame and barrel serial numbers, stop lug, top of toggle train, inside original grips, as a suggestion.
What is that depression/mark on the left side of the frame, near the trigger return spring?
Mark

Why would the flaming bomb be "lazy" on the pistol but upright on the grips?

The font on the “US PROPERTY” looks less like tirn-of-the-century font on US small arms. I’m far from an expert, but using 19th century US arms and turn-of-the-century US arms, the fonts are generally serifed. Additionally, the letter cited references plates (i.e., illustrations.) Where are they? The could clear up some of the surrounding confusion. Likewise, I read the letter repeatedly but must have overlooked the bit about having to hammer on the toggle to get the action closed. (I further note that no photos of the hammering marks are provided.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Wood View Post
They were patented in 1901 but weren't produced until 1904, and then only for about a year before going defunct.
Ron

Just wondering...How is it possible for the ordinance dept. to procure a stock in 1900, before the trials, if they weren't produced until 1904? The only possibility would be if it were a prototype.

Ok here are the photos of the US test Eagle stock. First time I had my hands on it. Photos clearly show period sherifs of the 1900 era. Halos around all stamp deformations. Age looks absolutely authentic.

(I think that Mike cleaned a little too hard over the numbers....when he got the stock....to read the numbers...but you still can see the age halos:)
1) gun was not stamped in Germany..was stamped by Springfield armory when they asked to see one of those New fangled Ideal stocks...made for Calvary types.... like them. And yes it was in the 1903-4 period AFTER THE TEST...why? Well...lets see...I GUESS.....They KEPT THE GUN And did not throw it in the trash can! Of course it was on hand for further tests etc.
2) Serifs of the 1900 period are present...so thats a fact to be seen. THese are America style...not european fonts added to grips, stock and mag. The gun has DWM fonts.
3) Sure its conjecture...thanks for that kindness...Not a nice generalization. Without document everything is conjecture...so we have to go off the metal marks and proofs....Like all LUGERS!...how many posts here are based on conjecture over metal proofs..about all of them? Trying to keep my cool here guys.
40 Kind suggestion: Be glad you have these photos and gun to look at....would the forum not want to find a discovery like this?...just because you dont like the guy that discovered it...or his exasperation over honest logic?). Man, cant even get a hand up out of a hole.

I know no one is going to be convinced...because I am not in the club. But its real and this is a great find now that the matched stock has been found.

Even if you dont think its one of the first 2 US test guns listed in Springfield paper above...it a great US military historical find..since its clearly owned and tested by Springfield armory...AT SOME TIME!!!

And if dont think this is one of the 2 test guns..then FACT: there is another 1900 luger with Springfield Armory markings out there in the 5600 range...see my point....see how silly this is?

Anyway I am too old to fight over bull****. I talked with Ron Wood by phone....he said he has more confidence now that the stock has been found with the exact same 1900 era serifs and age halos.

That enough for me.

Just want to document that Mike and I found them both and brought them together again after 120 years! (and from the same Estate in NH). Found gun in 2013 at Omaskgee auction....(with no mention what was under the grips) and mike found the stock at the estate of a famous soup family in NH.

This should be a cause for celebration....not hate.

Mark, Glad you got it and it all came together for you, But can I point out some crazy thinking here? There IS NO CLUB. All of the members who have taken their time to look and comment should be respected as individuals with opinions. No one is conspiring against you. Hate. What dark hole did you drag that out of? I have followed this thread closely and for you to suggest it, much less put it in print, is insulting. `I can't say about the forensics of your find but this part is nutty dude. Pretty sure you should apologize to everyone involved, correct your frame of mind and get back to the business at hand.

Jerry...I could not believe it when you made that comment...wow such rasping for straws of hate.......
do you think they would care which way they found a place to make a clear strike of the flaming bomb...up or horizontal? Seriously. The 1900 wasnt a gun for any gov inspector to pass on a production line..no regulations for proofs on a foreign-made arm. So my pin still stays up...that argument does not fly as a serious comment.

They just didnt want it to get carried off..and it was anyway.

Even if you dont think this was the first US test gun...fact: there is another 1900 in the same serial range of 5600 with US property marks on it. And I think thats a valid point...a very big elephant in the room.

You guys are all on record when the docs come out. Thanks for the support as always.
You would think there would be some open-minded celebration....not comments that are not the result of going to the bottom of the hate barrel.

There should be celebration on this fourm this item has been found with the original stock..and even if you dont want to think its the first us test......and some positive comments...not just the most reaching negativity I have ever seen in my life..and this is what people say who have contacted my personally on this forum.
They said they are afraid to come out and contradict you guys....because they said its clearly personality driven. I guess you guys cant see your self.

I see myself....I know I am prejudiced..I have sen and know what I see....and so has mike...and everyone that has seen the actual metal.

I dont mind the disagrement..I just dont like the snide nastiness and not mixing doubt with positive comments.....yes that offensive and unfriendly action.
My proof? A friendly open minded forum would say.
"Well I dont like this...cant figure that out....
But A, B, and C sure look good".
Thanks for the effort! Keep it up...thanks for sharing.
We all love to research Lugers...thansk for the photos."

You know..an open mind.

Fact. If you dont think this is the US Test then there is one Giant elephant in the room fact here: There is another 1900 in the 5600 range that has US Springfield marking on it.
See how desperate the negative position is becoming?

Paranoia will destroy ya. Make your case, but if you continue with this negative thinking and statements about the forum members and this site it will NOT be tolerated. It seems you are not perceiving the accolades you think you deserve and are resentful. Suck it up buttercup. It's a discussion forum. There is no club and no hate. Quit being a nutter.

So you agree that your comment about an up or down flaming bomb strike on an accessory was not relevant or vital? Thats my point...and to avoid the point is to prove my point.

And making personal attacks snd name-calling make you teh abusive party....I never called anyone a nutter..or a buttercup.....so yes this personal form of attack should stop..and again prove my point about teh presence of personal animosity.

Why do you resort to name-calling (nutter and buttercup) when you want to make a comment to me? Did I call you a personal name?

I am especially upset since the personalities involved totally obscure the great discovery that has been made here.

I have asked Ron Wood to moderate this since he has called me several times on the comments I have gotten on this stock and US test ISSUE.
Ron wood is the nice guy that told me to try to get it..or I would have let it pass...

To answer the guys (and Albert) writing to me wanting to see the unfired Krieghoff I got at Tulsa this weekend...here it is. Russ from Morphys said he tried to buy this exact 2 matched mag Krieghoff at the Las Vegas show 20 years ago...guy would not sell. They sold his estate at Tulsa this weekend.

Note: You cant see the "P" on the front..but its the rare commercail serial range P1100-1200

Parts of your pistol looks refinished and what makes you think those are krieghoff magazines?

Mark, your writing sounds more like Albert than I remember you sounding.
I saw this first on Jans forum and Albert wrote a lot - he has an attacking personality - which is very wearing and yes, I think prejudiced the postings of this find.
I am skeptical of new, wonderful finds. I was very excited to see the 45 luger carbine that Ralph Shattuck showed me, it seemed real to me and I was sorely disappointed to be told it was fake.
---
Mark, I am not saying that these are fake, in fact I think its a cool find. I do remember reading about them a number of years ago, then the stock shows up.
I have no problem with it being a prototype or even a later addition. I just find the US marking odd - doesn't mean it isn't correct, just odd. I have letter dies that were my grandfathers, he 'picked them up' while in service (he was a supply officer), again, not saying it is faked, simply that a unit armorer or even a commission could have told them to mark it as it was taken into service.

Ok Ed..thats a nice reasonable comment... thank you sir. But I don't call people buttercup and nutty..those are personal attacks. Why are some people (and a moderator) allowed to make personal attacks on posters....I never made personal attributions or threats? But the moderator is allowed to get personal.....to my person in an attempt to tell me not to get out of line? Everyone sees his bias and intemperance.

And can you see how all his comments are uniformly adversarial.? He even wants to attack my Kerieghoof...without looking at it closely.

I use logic..1), 2), 3)....to make my case....not comments against specific individuals. Never called anyone a nut case or buttercup...you think that was nice? Respectful? Cant be 2 standards...i hope.

See I have no problem with doubts when presented with an effort of decency and respect....thank you so much...so kind.

I just cant abide drive-by snied comments on a very important and very deep subject. The metal tells the story IMHO. Age leaves halows..and other signs...just having a faker stamp does not make it look old....and guys..they were totally separated for years...and 2 different guys found them...thats new data to the argument.

Mike will tell you the story. Ron will confirm that all the actors in this drama are unknown to each other and honest....since he was always cc'ed on all back on forth between me and mike.

I have no proof other than my photos. Thank you for your kind consideration.

You know I just want the chance everyone else gets here..I am an advanced collector and know a few things...just like you do.

Kenyon and Buxton were my personal friends..I learned everything from them back in the 1990s.

Here is my display I did on Buxton this weekend at Tulsa:

OK, nice. Now how do we explain two boosted magazines?

Jerry look at the serial...commercial production...P1110..."P" means commercial....commercial mags had no proofs....everyone knows that.
Bob Simpson, Dave Rachwal, and Russ Withem looked it over and said it was the best they had ever seen. (no it was not their gun). I guess Bob knows something about Krieghoffs..50 years of seeing commercial Kriegs....he had 5 lesser versions of the same variation from consigners at his table...to compare....And a correct Krieghoff has a thumbprint..like this one...and 3 different tones of blue....that all goes away if reblued.

I had serial number P1122 from Kenyon in 1994...one matched mag...exactly the same characteristics and condition..always regretted letting it go...was given crazy money for it in 1997....so I was glad to get one in same condition with 2 mags...
Put it this way....I was offered twice what I paid for it by a top luger collector at the show...
Russ Withem said he saw the gun in Las Vegas in over 20 years ago..and tried to get it from the same collector that died. Russ is Morphy's top luger consultant....and he knows his stuff up and down...

Why only negative comments? There is a personal thing going on here...and I feel it.
Can you see?....You prove my point.
Put yourself in my shoes.
You should go easy on me...I am one of the guys you talk about in your signature tag...that fought in combat for you for 21 years.
Blow up 3 times.
I just cant figure the hate.

OH! So it's a "commercial." OK, I stand corrected.

Here is the front....showing "p"...I thought the serial was enough..and the commercial proof that....

camera held phone..so not the best

Hello Edward,

It is not correct to bring up my name to make a remark about my past comments/posts when I have not even made a post in this thread.

People who know me for a long time, recognize me to be a pleasant honest guy. However, I can be harsh or rude at times (against collectors/experts who have attacked me or any item in my collection in the past for no reason without a close examination), but what I have gained over 35+ years in terms of knowledge and experience is quite significant and impressive bearing in mind that I have examined the most rarest German and Austrian pistols and carbines in my hands - except the M1910 .45 Luger - but one day I shall complete the whole mission. I have examined the 'best of the best' from a Mauser Zick-Zack prototype revolver (and carbine) to a Walther AP/MP with a stock.

To be equal and fair about this subject M1900 AE Luger belonging to Mark who I have known for quite a while, I shall be glad to share my expert opinion about the two items.

Happy collecting,
Albert

I wish nothing but good wishes to everyone here. Its a great hobby for free people. Where i live in Italy 6 months a year...you are free only to shut up and pay taxes.

After observing and comparing the characteristics of the Ideal stock, it is safe to say that it is genuine and once upon a time linked/connected to the M1900 American Eagle Luger serial #5673 which is in Ron's collection. It is exciting for both items to be reunited, now being able to tell a better story with their corresponding markings. I do not think that some one would go into all the time and effort to fabricate a fake for a Luger pistol that its exact whereabouts was unknown.

I suppose that the pistol was delivered to the Ideal Manufacturing Company as a sample and afterwards delivered to an US Board for evaluation or inspection which could explain the government markings and the corresponding serial numbers. Being the only pistol with such markings to survive, I do not think that it would have been part of the US Trial Luger shipments, but it does play an indirect role in the procurement by the US Government for a semi-automatic pistol and a holster that offered a dual purpose.

Based on the features of both items - and both being original - I believe that my opinion is logical and reasonable, but it seems that Ideal stock was not accepted for purchase by the military because a separate pair of smooth grips had to be switched and attached to the pistol which was impractical. For both items to remain in the same region and rejoined after a century adds more knowledge to Lugers and their history.

The mentality of most collectors and experts tends to revolve around value/money and often unfair judgements are made. I have been a victim of similar remarks on one of the rarest items in my personal collection, but there will always be a few bad people trying to trip up our hobby with their ignorance or their books which still spread wrong information. It can often be unfair, but there is a proverb from the Bible that says "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

Happy collecting and the quest for knowledge,
Albert

Then there's the question of how an Ordnance Shell and Flame not designed until 1936 somehow authenticates a pistol, grip or stock allegedly 30 years older??

https://goordnance.army.mil/history/shell_flame.html

M1903a3. I disagree. You said this stuff back in 2013 ..but many forms of stylized bombs existed since 1901. There was never only one type at any period. We do not know what proof stamps Springfield armory had on hand in 1904-09 period. Nobody knows.....you dont..I dont. We have all seen SA bombs in this period of all shapes and sizes. Nobody would be testing an ideal stock past the 1907 period.
Its a strawman argument....we dont know...thats the fact.

Hi Mike,

With reference to the link you provide above, the Ordnance Shell and Flame was used by European and US armies, including at the time when this M1900 AE Luger pistol was made in Germany and delivered to the USA. For example, a sentence on the web page says "Despite its sole ownership by the Ordnance Branch, multiple designs of the Shell and Flame existed", so it is not unreasonable to say that the design observed on the pistol and the iron of the Ideal stock is suspicious for that period.

Furthermore, it is not a proof mark, so its 'lazy' horizontal position on the pistol is not critical, instead to make it larger and visible to an Evaluation Board since the marking (inside the Ideal grips) 'U.S. Government' is no where on the pistol. The old-style markings on the pistol and stock/holster did not have to match perfectly, and knowledgeable collectors should be able to think and recognize the purpose of these markings instead of negatively questioning the originality of the pistol and the discovered Ideal stock when both are consistent. Most often fakers screw up in this area without knowing the significance of old natural patina and the aging of leather and wood. It is a 'science' and I don't think these marks and number were applied 30+ years later on these two items which had been separated.

However, thanks for the information that you provided which gave me some additional information/knowledge.

Cheers,
Albert

5673 Luger
 

Its good to see some real feed back from Mauser. I am the finder of the Ideal Luger stock. I would like to say that for one, I did not clean the numbered area on the stock. I,m a collector and and not a hack when it comes to cleaning. Please notice that the stock was not even cleaned or oiled. I left it this way to show the true age of the piece as it was found. I,m happy to have reunited the two pieces. They truly belong together. Regards Mike Hashem Old Post Office Antiques Ossipee, NH

The letter also says the test pistol was badly rusted.

Hi Albert. I am well aware the "Shell and Flame" (aka "Flaming Bomb") has been used by the US Army since its inception and even longer in Europe. Indeed, the Ordnance Department is considered the oldest branch of the US Army and had a Shell and Flame as part of its first insignia. However, from the start until after WWI, none of the US designs looked remotely like the subject one. They were characterized by wilder or more "blazing" appearing flames. They also were NOT used on firearms until after 1906 and this particular style until WWII.

I have been collecting US Military firearms for over 50 years, and have spent a good many hours in the Harper's Ferry and Springfield museums as well as many days researching in the Ordnance Department records group in the National Archives.

The first use of a Flaming Bomb on a firearm was on the M1903 Rifles manufactured in late 1905. It was retroactively applied to earlier '03s when they were converted to 30.06. Both Springfield and Rock Island stamped the mark on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. But it was a completely different design than the one discussed here. Both also started using a smaller version on bayonets. The use of these older styles continued through WWI and they also appeared on Eddystone, Remington and Winchester M1917 rifles. Springfield and contractors like Remington and Smith-Corona were still using older ones on the M1903a3 and '03a4 through WWII and the end of production. These Shell and Flames not only differed from the 1936 design, they also differed from each other.

During WWII the official 1936 design started to appear on contractor manufactured items such as bayonets. The only firearm I have seen this exact style used on was a WWII vintage trench shotgun from Winchester.

The only designs used by Springfield bear no resemblance to the one in question.

I never claimed it was a proof mark, although a very small one was indeed used as a firing proof on barrels, breeches and bolts of '03s

Fact 1: The first use of the Shell and Flames by Springfield on a firearm was on the Barrels of M1903's made in late 1905. It was also retroactively applied to earlier '03s when they were converted to 30.06.

Fact 2: The one used at that time doesn't look remotely like the 1936 design discussed here. This is not mere opinion on my part, it's very well documented. It's easy enough to see what the original one used by Springfield looks like. Museums have many examples, books are full of photos, and the barrels are conveniently dated. I have some in my own collection.

Question: Can you provide another example of Springfield ever using this exact design?

I’m still curious to know how was a stock that was not produced until 1904 available for a test referenced in a letter dated 1899?