Luger I found... PRISTINE
 

Hello....

I am new to this forum... and hope I was able to post it correctly....

I always liked WWII military weapons, and once in a while find items at estate/yard sales, etc. I am not a gun expert, and more or less keep items that hit me the right way...

I am sure people have used the word "MINT" too often to describe a gun in excellent condition.... but the Luger I found is truely PRISTINE MINT.

The steel parts that aren't blued, are gold in color and the grips are flawless. The gun was not reblued and/or refinished.

The numbers match (54410) and the clip has a wooden bottom. The most unusual thing about the gun, is that the barrel is stamped: : "Manfacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etianne."

What is it.... and can someone give me a general idea on what it's worth? I would be happy to e-mail a bunch of photos directly to those who can help me out...

Thanks for your help.... Robert...

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger1.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger12.jpg

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http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger11.jpg

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http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger14.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger17.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger18.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger19.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger21.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger27.jpg

WOW...the things dreams are made of....only about 5 or 6 examples are known. This thread is going too be fun too watch....

Robert this is clearly a fairly unique Luger... I would recommend that you create a member gallery album and post all your photographs there for examination by the forum.

Submit high quality jpeg files as there is no size limitation and the photos are automatically thumbnailed for viewing... but the hi-res originals are available to those who choose to examine them.

I am sure there will be many comments on your Luger. May I ask was this really a yard sale gun? or, if not, whose estate did it come out of?

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

Thanks JS for your comments....

I actually found it at a local flea market... Weapons are not allowed to be sold at our flea markets... but I noticed a small sign that said Luger for sale for $500....

I said: "I assume the Luger is at home"... and they said it's in their truck.

When I first saw the Luger, I was disappointed... I thought it was a brand new import of some kind from France. The gun is that pristine. The DWM mark, small crowns, and wood bottom to the clip made be think it's much older.

I asked if they are firm on the price, and they said they would take $450 for it.... and I offered them $400... to which they said if they don't sell it by 10:30 am... his wife would make him sell it for that amount.

I live in Phoenix, and it was hot as heck Sunday. 116 degrees!! The bank did not open till 10 am, and I saw the gun at 8:15 am, and only had $85 on me.

I don't have an ATM card, but called a friend on my cell to go to his ATM and take some money out...

I came back an hour later.... and offered the $400... and they went for it. I thought if the Luger was new... it had to be worth at least $400...

It appears I finally got lucky...

I will try to list it on the board.... but am still learning how to post...

Man...you are upsetting a few of us, I would place this a $5,000.00+....easy. I would have sold myself...like I could....and given him the 500 and bought him lunch.

Wow.....

Yes.... I'll treat my friend out to dinner for sure...... :-)

A Member Gallery album has been created that contains Robert's photos of this excellent Luger...

Hello John...

Thanks for your help on creating a Member Gallery.....

I just e-mailed you at the address you requested.....

Thanks again... Robert... :-)

I am curious. Is the $5k estimate based solely on the superb quality of the pistol or partly on its previous ownership by the French company? Is this a case where an "after factory" marking does not detract from the value?

Jim

Could someone please elucidate on this pistol? Evidently many of you have heard of such things, but some of us have not. Basically, what's up with it?

Here is a bit of info. from Sam Costanzo's book on Luger proofmarks; from page 234.

Do not know if this theory is dated or still valid. Will wait for the experts to reply...

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/frenchmarking.jpg

My luger-buddy, Doc, has borrowed my John Walter's book, The Luger Book, so I cannot look up what Walter might have written about these guns...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

I really appreciate the info. on this Luger.... So... it was made in 1906? Any idea how many were made? Thanks again... Robert..

Hello HistoryBuffGuy,

I think that selling couple deserves a nice gift certificate to one of Phoenix' nicest restaurants...IMHO...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

What a find!!! You realize that you are now truely "hooked" as forever more you will never be able to pass up a flea market, garage sale, swap meet, or other type action without stopping and searching for another bargain. It'll be pretty hard to beat that one. Congratulations. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

I don't know if I will see that couple again at the flea market.... I go fairly often, and did not recognize them...

I am afraid if I tell them I was very pleased with the purchase, the husband will get really angry with his wife for selling it for so low...

The seller thought it was a "Swiss Luger" when he showed it to me. I thought so too.... but the French writing made me think it was French made..

Robert

Holy cow! No wonder you guys flipped out. To show up at a flea market....it's like an urban legend or something. This is like finding the other trial .45. I don't think $5K would even start the bidding if were sold. To have survived 93 years in that condition out in the world is beyond imagination. Historybuffguy just made Luger history.

Thanks Herb.....

Like I mentioned earlier... I finally got lucky.... I hear estate sale finds fairly often for various collectibles... but it was always the other guy who finds something...

I now feel if you look hard enough... cool things are to be found... Robert...

This is like finding a winning lottery ticket! What a fantastic stroke of luck. It is a beautiful specimen just by virtue of its condition. The rarity is outstanding. In 1969 when Kenyon published "Lugers at Random", only two examples were known at that time. I have no idea how many more have surfaced, but it can't be many.

This Luger needs to be examined by an expert. As far as I know it is 100% authentic, and the purchase price virtually guarantees it. However there are a couple of things that need to be checked out. The example shown in Kenyon is serial number 51544. That is roughly 3000 numbers lower than this Luger. That seems like a pretty wide spread for a limited production gun, but not necessarily incorrect since special commercial sales were not assured of being consecutively numbered or even delivered as one lot. The other observation is that Kenyon states that the inscription of the French firm was made prior to finishing the Luger. In the photos, this Luger appears to have a "halo" effect around the firm inscription, which would indicate application "through the blue" after the piece was finished. This may be an illusion caused by the photo, or the example(s) observed by Kenyon may have already been refinished thus giving the appearance of having been roll die stamped before finishing.

In any event, this is a very important find and needs to be properly evaluated and appraised. If authenticated, it is going to fetch close to five figures.

WoW.... I will try to post a better photo of the barrel markings....

I will be able to post it tomorrow morning.... Thanks Ron..... you guys are great on this site... Robert...

Since you live in Phoenix, getting an accurate appraisal is going to be easy. Contact Ralph Shattuck out in Peoria, he is one of the worlds leading collectors/dealers and he does appraisals. He and Nancy will most assuredly be going to the Big Reno Show this weekend and will be setting up on Thursday so he might not be available right away. Contact info---Web site- http://www.worldoflugers.com
Address-- 19044 N. 98th Lane, Peoria --phone--623-566-0551--email--Ralph@WorldOfLugers.com
if you do get a good estimate keep it to yourself until everyone here has exhausted thier guesstimates. If Ralph is at the show I'll let him know you will probably be contacting him.
About the seller, if you ever see them again just walk on by, unless you like to see grown men cry.

historybuffguy,
A couple of nice clear photos of the serial number on the barrel and frame would also be helpful.

Thanks Herb for the info.....

I e-mailed some photos to Ralph, and he gave me some info. It appears it was made in 1906... He more or less wants me to state what do I want for the gun... Like anybody... the more the better since I will never find another one like it...

It's a beautiful gun to look at... but now I can't enjoy it, because I am afraid to handle it due to it's apparent rarity... Where would be a good place to sell it?

It is a 1906 pattern Luger, but based on the serial number it probably was actually manufactured a lot closer to 1908 than 1906.

Historybuffguy,

Congrats! on this incredible find! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

What else can I say...

kidvett <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Ralph listed one in his #241 list as "near mint...the best...$6,500.00" and one in list #243 at $5,500.00....I think these are the same model as yours. do not be in a rush too sell it. Take your time and gain some knowledge.

Don't even think about selling it now, let it's reputation spread a little, it's so rare any collector with the cash would surely want it, give it some time to reach the really rich ones and then put a really high figure on it and set back and wait. Contact the current book writers, Jan Still, Kenyon and others to get pictures of it published with you as the owner, go down in history and get some free publicity. What a find, a once in a life time event, I envy you, like you said, it always happens to the other guy. If Ralph wants it there is money to be had, so sit tight for the time being. Brad Simpson is a big buyer too, see his site at http://www.simpsonltd.com personally I would sweat them out, it sure as hell isn't going to loose any value by waiting. Right now you have $400 invested, don't make the same mistake the guy at the flea market made, place your bet and let it ride for awhile, you are not going to lose anything by waiting as long as it takes. I recommend you go to the bank and rent a safe deposit box for it unless you have a really good safe at home. Take an armed guard with you, lol.

Thanks again Herb.....

and thanks to Ron, Kidvet, and Policeluger...

You guys are great....

I remember 20 years ago when I was a kid... I always wanted a Luger.....

A few years ago... I bought a Japanese Nambu because they looked like a Luger (to an extent),

I could not afford a real Luger at the time... and Nambus'were cheap (especially in quality-LOL).

I guess I will wait for serious offers... and finally buy a Luger I can "play with." :-)

Robert...

As luck would have it, I was leafing through somw back issues of "Gun Report" today, and ran across a mention of these pistols in the May 2002 "Lugers at Random" column.

The gun in question was in the "high 26000" serial range and had a French Fleur-de-lis over the chamber; Kenyon noted that most of the examples he has examined (number not specified) were in the low 5000 range, with no chamber stamp.

Other salient features: short frame, polished-frame safety. Also look for extractor marked "Charge".

Mentioned in the text was a gun pictured in "Luger--the Multinational Pistol" on pp114-115.

--Dwight

Historybuffguy,

Congratulations on finding such a superb Luger for $400 - you definitely stole that Luger!

With the highest degree of respect for my friend Ron, all the information that he provided is correct, but there is no need to have it inspected by an expert - it appears absolutely genuine according to the images and it has very good 'comfort zones' (consistency). A good Luger will speak for itself! I would be delighted to give you an expert opinion considering that I have strong French blood in me!

For your information, I recently heard of another 1906 French Commercial in Europe serial #51537 and the fact that your pistol is a few thousand serial numbers higher is of no concern. There is no rule written in stone that states that these pistols must be in a narrow serial range and it is very probable that these Lugers were delivered to the French company on an order basis and, therefore, not included in a defined serial range.

By reason of the fact these Lugers were ordered from DWM in Germany by 'Manfacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etianne', the marking on the barrel was rolled on after the pistol was finished and applied in France. In some cases, the number '172-72' will appear under the barrel which is the gauge of the barrel.

Interestingly, there is an earlier French model with a 'Fleur-de-Lis' chamber logo which falls around the 25000-26000 serial range which is rarer than the 1906 model - find one of those and you can ask double the price! On the other hand, it would be great to own the pair.

My advise is to wait and find a good home for this Luger which will satisfy your wallet or simply keep it considering the very small investment.

Well done,
Albert Beliard

Dwight,

Wasn't that in the low "50,000" range? A Luger in the 5000 range would be a 1900 model. The commercial 1906 configuration did not appear until around serial number 25,100 +/-. I think there has only been one example found with the Fleur-de-lis over the St. Etienne banner.

Since I have never handled one, I do not know for sure how the extractor is marked, but I believe that the 1906 French was marked "GELADEN" since presumably they were made up for promotional purposes out of regular commercial production rather than a special series, and only the 1903 transitional French was extractor marked "CHARGÃ??". It will be interesting to see how historybuffguy's extractor is marked.

HistoryBuffGuy,

Could you take a photo of the marking on the left side of the extractor to let us know if it is Marked "charge" or not...?

Since you only paid $ 400.00 for this wonderful pistol, you might want to keep it for the next 10-15 years and then sell it as an even better investment...This might be the nicest luger you will ever hold in your hands, let alone own...just my $ 0.02...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Hello again...

I took a bunch of photos with the toggle pulled back.... I did not see the word "charge" anywhere, but am not exactly sure where to look.... I did look hard, and still did not see that word.....

I did not use the flash on the barrel to show the French markings, because the reflection was too bad.

I think I took enough photos from every possible angle, and won't be able to take anymore since I opened up a safe deposit box at my bank this morning as a means to prevent me from handling it, and for safe keeping. It appears to be worth more than my Geo Metro....LOL.

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger35.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger36.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger38.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger39.jpg

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http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger46.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger48.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger49.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger50.jpg

Unfortuantely I am not near my photo archive... could someone please post a photo of a raised extractor showing where the stamping would be so that the next time the historybuffguy examines his Luger he can determine what the stamping is?

Thanks,

Hey HistoryBuffLuckBoxGuy! Four important things I want to tell you. (1) do not sell this gun to a big name dealer. These guys will not give you the top dollar for your gun. You gun is rare and valuable but they are professional enough to know that they have to make a profit too. That profit will come out of your profit. (2) Your gun appears to have the original dried sperm whale oil on the strawed (or yellow parts) on it. DO NOT CLEAN THAT OFF. That adds to the authenticity and value of this gun. (3) You now have access to this forum and its classified section. You don't need anyone else to sell your gun for you. Just put the best oil all over it that you can and put it away. The price is not going to come down. (4) Finally, only sell it to me. I'll give you an instant doubling of your money. I might even be able to go a little higher than that.
Big Norm

Thanks Norm.... LOL.....

Yes.... the steel parts are yellow.... The yellowing is from a "Sperm Whale"....?? I won't touch it for sure!!! LOL

It's so cool that I finally found something great.... I guess it means there's hope for anybody out there looking around.... I never had luck like this before..

I will think about your offer... :-).

Thanks again for your advise... Robert...

Robert,
* Pete mentioned John Walter's The Luger Book as a reference (c. 1986). From Pg. 117, Item #F38, I quote(paraphrase) an excerpt from this author's volume:

"In addition to the military test guns(if that is what they were...commercial S/N's in the 25,000 group), several 'French Commercial' pistols have been identified. Most were marketed by Manufacture Francais d'Armes et Cycles(MFAC) of Saint Etienne, the legend being applied along the upper surface of the barrel. Amoung the pistols reported have been 45425 (probably dating from c.1908) and 51549 (c.1909)."

* Congratulations. Absolutely a lifetime find. Thanks for sharing this premier example with us.
Respectfully,
Bob

Robert,

The "extractor" is the device shown in the center of this photo (centered, on top of the breechblock), that I edited from one of your photos.

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/charge.jpg

With the toggle locked back and open, you can carefully lift the front end of the extractor (the end closest to barrel) up gently. Lift it up about 1/8" and you should see the word "Charge" on the left hand side. Or maybe your marking will be "Geladen". The right side of your extractor should not have any markings...so take a look there as well...

It is the cross-shaped device and the front-most tip of the extractor hooks onto the bullet casing and pulls out the fired bullet casing when the toggle begins to move backwards in its recoil. The extractor pulls the casing out of the chamber and further back on the right hand side the "ejector" helps throw the casing out of the receiver...

The extractor also as a 2nd. dual purpose. When your breech is closed and there is a bullet in the chamber, the extractor will be held up 1/16" to 1/8" to indicate a round is chambered. You can feel the raised extractor at night when you cannot see...it was the luger's new model modified extractor (having 2 purposes...).

Please let us know the marking on your gun's extractor...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Thank God You Found It!!!

I knew I left that thing somewhere. If you want I'll describe it in detail for you, so that you know its really mine. Then you can just box it up and send it to me. There will be a reward of courde!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Thanks for the info. Pete and Bob....

I will try to get a better look at it tomorrow since now it's put away in a safe deposit box as of this morning. I think it's safer there because I won't have easy access to fiddle around with it.

I NOW know why people cover up digits on the serial numbers when taking photos of guns... IE Johnny.. LOL

No harm in trying Johnny... I am sure you have a nicer collection than I do.... I just got lucky... and there's hope for anybody...

Maybe you might find that bag of money I left somewhere.. :-).

You guys are great.... I wish I knew more about Luger collecting, so I won't sound so dumb....

Robert..

In looking at your pics, I see that there is some rust starting to form in several locations. I am not a gun expert, but I believe there is a need to preserve this valuble piece immediately. I don't know about the 'dried sperm whale oil', but a competent professional should clean that pistol with a high-quality gun oil. The grips can dry and crack, too, if the humidity gets too low. The pistol was obviously properly stored for most of it's life, but it won't take long for it to deteriorate if not protected. I would contact a firearms mueseum to get their take on what to do, if anything. The color on the small parts is called 'Straw', by the way, and is accomplished by the precise application of heat. If they used whale oil on the gun to preserve it, it may well be best to leave that alone - perhaps it hardens into a varnish with time.