Uh Oh! You aren't supposed to catch on this quickly.

[quote]Originally posted by wes:
<strong>Uh Oh! You aren't supposed to catch on this quickly.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well - I did - and now I know for sure - that this isn't a great idea!!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

<img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> He,he,he, John, you only get one guess!

YOU! of course...I am too busy with the P38's

Orv

John (and others), I would imagine that there is someone that has extreme interest in this and could be given permissions to run that one section of the forum?

Others should put their wisdom to good use, [img]wink.gif[/img]

[quote]Originally posted by John D.:
<strong>

Hey wait a minute - before I get sucked into this conversation any further.. Just who are you nominating to program, build, design, host, support and manage this "Registry"???!!!

[img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

And before -I- get into too much trouble here, I am not necessarily promoting this feature (well, maybe just a little bit, I think it is kind of a good idea), my original intent was to summarize the ideas in this thread [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

--Dwight

[quote]Originally posted by Orv Reichert:
<strong>YOU! of course...I am too busy with the P38's....</strong><hr></blockquote>


Hi Orv..!!!

(Shhesssh - that reminds me - I gotta get your new table up on the P-38 Forum, too..!!!)..!! OK...

I just read your earlier post - and maybe I can do this..?? I know I have a large Krieghoff database for my use - but that is largely paper based.. So, my questions are these:

When you set up your database - the "Identification sheet" - do you use them after you set up the information (what I'm getting to - is if I do this "on-line" - should it have a document management system where the IDENT sheets are a part of the "record"?

I know how you said you talk about the "source" as being NAPCA or Forum, or whatever. Is there a need to retain the "real" user name/address?? I know I do in my Krieg database?

Do you keep pictures "on-file" as well for particuliar P-38s? And if so - are those used by you?

Sorry for all the questions - but I am seriously "scoping" out the task to start a Luger Registry for this group - and I'm now reconciled I'd probably be the guy who got "volunteered" - not that I'm complaining, as I do something similiar for my own area of interest [img]smile.gif[/img]

Don't know if this issue has been decided. Believe that the concept is an excellent one. All discussions have been very good. IMHO it should be added.

Regards

John...I don't keep the source documents or data. I just load it into the program..then throw the crap away. I don't have the room or inclination to keep all that stuff.

I set up [1985] a dBASE file...and, now, am being forced into transferring over to something else as my Win2000pro does not like the 16 bit base dBASE 4 ... My computer pro suggests ACCESS so he is reviewing my data and program to make the needed adjustments.

The source is important when you find a matching mag...or a serious question comes up? I do have a few photos but I don't make an effort to keep/collect them!

I am sending a copy of a database I made up years ago for the H&K guns...I never got farther than entering a few from Gibson and misc sources. [check your email]

Orv

Hi Orv..!

Thanks so much for the info - it really helps (also got the attachment you sent via e-mail - thanks! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now - in looking at the base of information and a database, it really appears similiar to another system I already have programmed - that does database look-ups on Porsche Part numbers. You can seach by number, partial numbers, description, etc. To see what I mean - try this link - and imagine that rather then entering car part numbers, you were looking for a serial number in a block, or "Commercial" as part of the description, etc. OK - here is the link:

Parts Look up database

In there - I run an ACCESS database front-end with System DSN calls to SQL Server on a system behind my firewalls. It also is pretty quick, given that I think there are about 50,000 - 60,000 parts in the database...

Now, while I'm still not commiting to do this(!!!) - it could be that my existing technology could address some of the more immediate questions. As well - I may have an idea - that "could" work, to limit access to *only* those registered to POST (not just browse) these Forums - so it wouldn't be "open" to any "public" passer bys...???

Interesting concept...! Thanks again Orv..!!

No one here in California, at least for right now, wants us to regester car, as a means of car control. Car clubs do not fear VIN numbers, as we fear gun grabbers. As for my 2 cents worth, your first gun buy should be in books and visiting as many shows as possible, nothing bets knowledge. I remember years ago a seller at the LA Great Western show allowed me to take a complete Luger rig over to Jan Still, who so kindly gave me information as too the gun being correct and what too look for. That pistol is still in my collection, th e buyer needs to beware, and informed. It is not the same group of good 'ol boys selling guns as it was 40 years ago. The cheats out there waiting too make a buck, at your loss of knowledge is just sadding.

Hey...when I was hot-rodding in the '50s...they tried to outlaw hot rods by passing a fender law.. a headlight law [min 27" to center of light' and other laws to protect us from our 'BAD' cars!

It is the same group of idiots...

Gun laws will be as successful at stopping crime as car registration has been successful in stopping DUI!

Orv Reichert

Gentlemen:

When dealing with fakes and refinishes, perhaps what would be important is to always explain in detail exactly How or Why something is considered/determined to be a fake or refinish, rather than simply pronounce an item as such. Then, each person can decide for himself whether something is faked/refinished or not, and apply the same reasoning to anything else that is encountered in the future. Otherwise, it would seem all too easy for any list to become a "blacklist," always subject to the pronouncements of "experts," without any improvements in true understanding.

When dealing with boosted pieces in which the alteration is indistinguishable from the original, however, the only way to determine if an item has been boosted appears to be through its history and provenance.

Regards,
Gene

Gene,

I do not know that we would want to label any gun as a fake or altered, but merely document the gun as to markings, condition, mechanical, model, features, etc. Each person should decide for himself whether something is faked/refinished, by study and knowledge.

We could also mention whether a certain feature of the gun was correct/incorrect for the issue or model. This would aid any purchaser or owner in knowing if a gun has been altered since it was documented. Also this would cause any profiteer to pause before enhancing the gun.

I agree that any pronouncements or opinions of "experts" would result in a registry being a blacklist and would only hurt our hobby.

Gene and wes, I think both are good ideas, telling us guys what to look for sounds very valuable to us!

So, if there are comments, it would be very helpful to tell us why you believe that is a messed up or modified (boosted) Luger.

Reply to original message "National Luger Collectors Association" This is a great idea! There are enough of us, and Lugers are so popular, even with others who never use this forum, that it makes sense. We could elect directors at large, from several areas of the hobby, as well as a database of collectors, dealers, and shooters. The board could investegate alleged fraud, misrepresentation, etc. and act on behalf of it's members to resolve disagreements with dealers, and protect our common interest. We could make several positive improvements in this hobby, and area of collecting. I, for one would offer to be a board member, but have no computer expertise, and have no idea how to go about starting one!
GREAT IDEA!!!!! Anyone in the association would be held to the highest ethical standards and practices, with no one "grandfathered in"

Der Waffen Sammler <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Dear Folks
Everyone has excellent ideas! I think its more important that a discussion concerning the very real problem of fakes, refinishes and boosted Lugers take place than the exact details of the discussion format (it is up to the moderator). However, as many of the problems are common to all the Luger variations, the discussion would be better served if it took place under one heading.

Remember the next time you go to a gun show or visit a dealer.
Know the reputation of the seller.
Dont depend on the seller to provide accurate information.
Know the details of the finish, serial range, and markings on the Luger variation you are looking for.
Look critically at your potential purchase.
If The potential purchase is supposed to be 80 years old and the finish looks almost new it probably is.
Once you buy it, its yours.
Jan C. Still

Jan good input. I have a concern about an honest and trusted gun show seller that has little knowledge about Luger's in particular. He may have been the victim of a 'booster' without knowing it. He honestly presents the Luger as he knows it to be, feeling that he is presenting it as an all original or whatever, and the purchaser later finds that it is a fake. Who is the victim in a case like this, does this make the vendor dishonest, or also a victim in the transaction? I feel that a vendor, someone that does not specialize in Lugers and buys and sells for profit is not necessarily an informed individual in the area of Lugers. The final decision to buy has to be made by the buyer armed with all of the information that is avaiable. This forum is one of those tools that will help, but it is difficult to take the forum to the gun show. Buyer Beware! A theif might steal all of your possesions, but he can never steal your knowledge.

Hey Herb,

I like your "wisdom teeth" saying at the end of your posts, but unfortunately most folks had their wisdom teeth pulled; so we really need more help... [img]wink.gif[/img]

On a serious note; let's say one buys a luger then later on finds out it is a fake, refinished, or boosted gun. Assuming too much time has passed for any recourse with the previous seller, what does the current buyer do ?

Here lies the real ethics test...

Some options I could see are :

1. Sell it to the next un-informed buyer (not ethical in my book). But I suspect this might happen alot...

2. Keep it in your collection as that "lesson learned" luger. And make it one of your shooters...

3. Sell it on its true merits (presummably at some loss).

Would love to hear how the major luger collectors on the Forum have handled this...I assume each has had this happen, maybe very early in your luger collecting careers...

Pete, I personally haven't had this happen yet but I guess it is just a matter of time. I got really burned in the late 80's on a German SS officers dress dagger. I paid $1030 for it as an all original, acutally included the SS oficers number. I contacted the director of the Berlin Document Center and requested his offical file. I recieved it and he was indeed an SS officer. I spent $100 bucks to send it to LTC (ret) Thomas Johnson an authority on such things and he sent his report, a very good fake!! Well, all things considered I still feel that it is original, but am very hesitant to present it as such because of his evaluation. The vendor I bought it from had the complete uniform of the SS officer that he purchased from his family. His SS number and name was embossed inside his uniform, every thing was in order. What am I to do?? I feel that it is authentic, a supposed expert thinks it is fake, where from here? This is one of the things that really bother me, if after doing my research, making a purchase, and then being told by a supposed expert that I got taken, what next? Who is the expert? I researched everything available and made a buy based upon that knowledge and I am now told I am the dummy. This is what bothers me about the idea of establixhing a site that touts originality, what is really original? The numbers, inspection stamps, rework acceptance stamps, repair stamps, you name it, are so varied that it is almost impossible to accrately state that "this is it". If a Luger barrel, for esxample, failed proof at the factory due to excessive head space, or out of tolerance land diameter, the barrel would be replaced, renumbered to the original number and would recieve a small stamp on the barrel indicating it is a replacement barrel. Does this make it 'non original' I don't think so, as it has not even left the factory yet.
We are going to open a can of worms here if we are not careful.

Herb and I am not trying to start anything or doubt anyone, but in the Legal profession, if you talk to different experts, you can get different opinions. Some is untruths, but I think most experts on each side believe what they are saying, and have different views. If you took your dagger to another expert, would they have the same opinion? The "evidence" you were shown and heard, sounds awful convincing?

[img]confused.gif[/img]

Ed, my opinion exactly. I held his hat, his tunic, his trousers and his boots in my my hands. If this vendor was trying to fake an original dagger he sure went to a lot of trouble to do it. But I still cannot in all good concience offer it for resale some day as an original as a relsult of his evaluation. Who is the expert, the buyer or someone that says they are and charges $100 to prove it?

Are we to decide that nothing can be determined? That the exception becomes the rule? If we cannot state it completely, then nothing can be stated?
This would allow for the continuation of alteration, fakery, enhancement, etc.
At the least, documentation of a gun would freeze its characteristics, excluding attrition.
A determination as to whether a gun is fake should not be made while documenting its traits. Let that be determined in private counsel and research.

[quote]Originally posted by wes:
<strong>
A determination as to whether a gun is fake should not be made while documenting its traits. Let that be determined in private counsel and research.</strong><hr></blockquote>

True. But if we are traavelling down this road,the registry should note: 1. guns which are -already- recognized as fakes (Jan Still pointed out a couple of examples a while back, I'm sure there are more), and 2. markings which are at varience with the recognized authentic markings, i.e. KRIEGHOFF with two good 'F's, A.F. STOEGER with upright lettering instead of italic, etc.

--Dwight

[quote]Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:
<strong>

markings which are at varience with the recognized authentic markings, i.e. KRIEGHOFF with two good 'F's, A.F. STOEGER with upright lettering instead of italic, etc.

</strong><hr></blockquote>


Dwight, I agree with this.

In answer to Pete's question about the dilemma of finding that you are the not-too-proud owner of a boosted Luger . . . [img]mad.gif[/img]

I find myself in EXACTLY that situation now. I have a 1942 byf which looked great, all matching, 98% blue, etc. I bought it months ago when I first started collecting and was too uniformed to look for anything dishonest about the condition of the gun.

Recently I had occasion to carefully examine the bluing again and found that the barrel has been buffed and reblued. The right side of the barrel has rust pits in it which are beautifully blued all the way to the bottom . . . . much teeth grinding here. [img]mad.gif[/img]

My answer: Under no condition will I sell the gun. Instead, I have a wonderful friend who loves the gun just the way it is, reblued barrel and all. I am making a present of it to him with his full knowledge of the "boosting" which has taken place. He is happy; I have a clear conscience.

Nevertheless, somewhere down the line, maybe in 50 years, that gun will be sold again as a "mint" byf 42.

One last caution concerning faked,refinished and boosted Lugers. As Bill Munis pointed out, none of us were at the DWM or Mauser plant when Lugers were being manufactured. The fakers and dishonest dealers ply their trade in secret.

Most often, all the collector has to detect bad Lugers is his past experience, knowledge of markings and serial ranges, common sense and knowledge of the dealer. Some bad Lugers are easy to detect (poor quality refinish, 90 year old gun that looks brand new, inconsistent aging, incorrectly spelled inscription, previous record of the gun without inscription, etc) other bad Lugers are of the highest quality and very difficult to detect (A "K" date expertly made from a Weimar luger). Most often there is no documentation.

As with anything that requires common sense and judgement mistakes are made (ie Johnson the dagger expert may have been mistaken about Herb's SS dagger). In short, the process of detecting bad lugers is fairly certain at the easy end of the scale and not always certain at the difficult end of the scale. However, one pattern is consistent, most often experienced collectors and dealers will not buy the same questionable Luger.
Jan C. Still

I think that documenting the Lugers that we know to be good is allright. I bought a 1918 DWM from Ralph last March. I have no problem registering it's current condition for the benefit of a possible future owner as I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when I go to the happy Luger hunting grounds she will dispose of it, as well as all the others in my collection. I guess what I am trying to say is that positively stating that a 1935 Mauser will have ONLY these markings and no others is really shakey. If one had ten of them in front of him and closely examined every one they probably would all have different marks in one place or another. I am reasonably sure that Mauser, DWM, etc. each had several inspectors and also several Waffenampt final inspectors that accepted the pistols that came off the line on any given day. Each one of these inspectors would have a different stamp, therefore the same days run would bear several different markings from the same factory although not on the same Luger. I don't know, am I making any sense here? I am leary of anything unusual such as a 'deaths head' stamping, or any so called 'rare' variation regardless of the price. I think that registering known 'originals' by serial number is ok, it would at least provide a data base that one could check the serial number to see if it is there and did it have that marking at that time. Of course this data base would be useless to any of us since the weapons are still held in private collections and are very unlikely to be on the open market for quite some time, ie; when we die. Over the years it would come to be invaluable to future buyers assuming that someone maintains it. Of great current value would be for the big sellers like Ralph, Simpson and others to join in on such a project as their Lugers will be hitting the market almost on a daily basis, they would also benefit by having the accurate condition data on a particular date from each other. Who has the big carrot to get them to do this, that is a lot of work?

Hi Folks....

I think there are three issues at work in this thread...

1 - A Luger Collectors society such as something like an "International Lugers Collectors Association" (ILCA??). I think it could be a terrific idea...

2 - a "Registry" where folks can enter their Lugers - and that database can be accessed by folks in a society like "ILCA" as mentioned above? I still need to see what technology I could bring to bear on that (and thanks to Orv for his advice!)....

3 - a Forum to discuss the pitfalls/what to look for in Lugers that may have been altered? Now, I have a LOT of Forums to watch, and with the help of some Moderators - we can do it. Therefore - I'd like to ask Jan Still to help Moderate a Forum of this topic. All in favor - say "Aye"... All opposed - don't post [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

Jan - you would have a vote in becoming a Moderator, but it won't count!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Seriously, if Mr. Still will agree to help out - I'd be delighted to set up this Forum, but as you can tell from my delayed replies over the past few days, I'm a little behind in my e-mail and reading..!!!

John, excellent choice, you have my AYE!!

Aye

A big A Y E [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Please consider it, Mr. Still.

Luke

Aye

I say AYE! (but I am STILL waiting for the other shoe to fall [img]biggrin.gif[/img] because Jan needs to say AYE)

-pun intended of course <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

A registry sounds pretty nice to a rank novice like myself. I'm becoming more and more enamored with Lugers as I try to resell the pieces that I happenstance acquired. A registry would certainly give me a jumpstart on the knowledge that I need to avoid making embarrasing mistakes to a buyer of short changing myself because of lack of knowledge. And in the very likely event that I start my own collection of Lugers, I'll need even more help.

That said, from a computer systems analyst perspective, man you've tackled a bigggggg job when you start to amass all the data involved. And the DATA would have to be authenticated, same as the gun would for it to be reliable. I ain't quite as old as a former poster, but I'm afraid I don't that much time left.

Someone mentioned an "authority" who could or would authenticate a piece. Now I'm really interested in that. I'd PAY for the service!!!

Ron