John D., I was politely suggesting........

[quote]Originally posted by wes:
<strong>John D., I was politely suggesting........</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey Wes....!!!

You know me - don't EVER politely suggest [img]smile.gif[/img] Just come out and say it..!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] You know I don't beat around the bush (I bet some would wish I did..).. And nope - I will not close down this thread.

Ask me how I really feel..???!!! Pete's reply above captures the sentiment - but if pressed, I'll put it in my own words. [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

Best to you,

John

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>...as I know Wes and you (John) would rather do that than comment on comments of others [img]smile.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Ed,

I would rather comment publicly on Lugers (Well - HK's to be exact) then worry about other folks that post and worry about how they have alienated new-comers to this hobby. Ask me why I reply privately?

I guess I'm not alone.

John D.

After all that has been said, if this realy is a Luger and Alex can look at any of the photos posted to tell if it is, BUY IT. At that price, if it cycles and is not a pile of rust you cannot go wrong. Hopefully, you know enough about guns in general to know if it apears to be in reasonable condition. For the price of $175.00 I would not care what model, year, etc it is. All I would be concerned with is "does it apear to be in sound mechanical condition?" Good luck and welcome to the forum. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

So Steve, we should start a new and real thread on LuGaRs, [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

But, I have seen upper receivers go for $150 with barrel and the same for lower receivers, so just for the beat up body of anything would be worth it to play with. Do as some have done and practice your bluing skills or cutting down the barrel or frame.

Is there a trend here? A tendency to gang up on knowledgeable collectors because we don't like what they say or the way they say it? First Klaus Schad then Jan Still, and now Garfield? What will we be left with if they all go?
Craig

[quote]Originally posted by crgkstnr:
<strong>Is there a trend here? A tendency to gang up on knowledgeable collectors because ...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmmmm.....

I reckon that you are fair game. I am not certain which of the two of you, Garfield or you, is the more ignorant.

~~~

Now how do you feel?

Is it OK that I reply to your post this way - or are you saying it's OK for Bill to treat a new comer that way on their first post? Is there a difference?

Is so - please tell me how?

Oh - has Jan been telling folks I banned him, again? For the record - he isn't banned. He chooses not to post. That is his decision, not mine.

John D.

[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill:
<strong>Common sense and the fact that I don't have a dog in this fight tells me to stay out...</strong><hr></blockquote>

But your words are full of wisdom....

I believe you are right. Right on target - at 500 yards, still staying out of the fire-fight, you hit the bullseye and the X ring. Couldn't have done better with my H-BAR at the LE Colt Cup....

Well said RK.... Thanks....

JD

Roadkill,

I would suggest just the opposite. It seems more like a coup d'etat. The coming of the new guard. We must have a little introspection and divine our motives (if we understand human nature).

'Arrogant superiority' exists where there is no superiority. Conceded and demonstrable superiority would not fall into the same catagory as conceit.

As an outside observer I really believe this thread should have been moderated long before getting this far. I hate to waste my time reading this useless rhetoric. It should have been stopped sooner.
All of you are good at what you write, it's just not worth anything.

Flame on!

[quote]Originally posted by ToggleTop:
<strong>As an outside observer I really believe this thread should have been moderated long before getting this far. ....</strong><hr></blockquote>

So - given your insight and comments - at which post exactly, would you have moderated it?

Just interested....

John D.

John D.,
When the word ignorant was used I would have began deleting at that point. You know as well as I do we do not need that on this forum. It is not for us to judge one's ignorance!

[quote]Originally posted by ToggleTop:
<strong>John D.,
When the word ignorant was used !</strong><hr></blockquote>

You know what - I agree 100% with you.... My apologies for not moderating this thread sooner, as I think you are right....

Unfortunatley, there are those who may disagree with both of us, and therefore the wasted bandwidth after the point when moderation should have taken place...

My Best to you - and my thanks. And again, my apology for not hopping on this thread sooner....

John D.

John D.,
We are very fortunate to have you as Site Moderator. I am only here to learn and contribute what I can, and it don't cost me a dime. I don't want to mess it up!

[quote]Originally posted by ToggleTop:
<strong>I don't want to mess it up!</strong><hr></blockquote>

You certainly haven't..!!! In fact - it's folks like you that this Forum is all about. Read RoadKills Post above, and Pete's, and Alex's and RJennings posts.... You folks are what this is about....

In my mind - it's not about the old guard, hidden agenda's, secret handshakes to collecting and what "should be" given a hidden code word...

Rather - this Forum should be about what "is" and "can" be given this tremendous hobby. And you are a very important part of that. And for that - you have my, and many others from the "silent" community - well, you have our combined thanks....

And yes - you are right - I should have moderated this thread sooner. You are right. My thanks for that as well....

John

Roadkill,
I feel your comments are totally uncalled for. You have made it perfectly clear on many occassions that you are a shooter, not a collector, have no desire to be a collector, and you dispise collectors. In my opinion your comments about collectors and their attitude are not even close to the way it is. Collectors have spent years trying to acquire the knowledge to tell the difference between variations, fakes, and reblue's, and share this information with you, so you can read a book and quote their passages. The collectors I know do not feel or act higher or better than anyone. They are willing to share information, but instead of welcoming them and accepting them, they are questioned and challenged on all posts with requirements to produce documentation. The experts try to stay current with information, which you do not, and are constantly trying to share this new information because you are still passing on 50 yr old wrong information. When they do try to help you, you label them as trying to be better or above you. There is a major problem here with people posting wrong answers and if you correct them you get "the wraith of Roadkill" with comments of being power hungry and acting above everyone. Your attitude is as much a problem as anyones! And yes, I do think the true experts do deserve some respect, and yes, what they state has more meaning than someone re-siting a 50 yr old book! ---- John, shut this damn thread off and lets move on!!!

For those with a concern about Jan Still, He has posted 4 times during the 1st week of this month. why he has been silent this week is either anyone's guess, or more likely nobody's business but his.

Jan is a welcome contributor to this forum... He is not now, nor never has been banned from posting on this forum. Who starts these rumors? [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

And Bill M, you and I have been at opposite sites of a technical discussion on more than one occassion in the last few years, but it has never led to name calling and outright arrogance... I have great respect your collected knowledge and often recommend that others seek your guidance..."experts" DO deserve respect... and they generally get it when they have earned it.

Respect for technical knowledge does not automatically carry with it respect for the person, their attitude, or their manners. That is a totally separate issue.

That is all that is expected of anyone who comes to this place... mutual respect, (the key word being mutual) and simply stated, the obvious exercise of the golden rule...

If Garfield doesn't care how other people treat him in public, that is his business, but his technical and historical knowledge do not give him the right to abuse others because he doesn't care how they will react... at least not here.

And no, I won't shut off this thread either, just because folks are speaking their minds... as long as they do it with respect for others who may not agree with them. Once the evidence of respect has dissipated... then and only then will I step in and pound the gavel, and maybe snap the padlock on a thread.

I have worked hard during the last 3 years to help make this a great place to visit and exhange information... I don't get paid a dime, I am not a dealer, or a collector... and I haven't fired a shot out of anything that I own in almost 10 years. I do it out of fascination with the Luger, it's engineering marvel, it's diverse and interesting history, and it's remarkable longevity. I also like Luger people.

From 1981 to 1986 I served as an Inspector General while on active duty. The motto that adorns the IG crest is "Droit et Avant" ...it has been my personal motto since that time. For those of you who have never heard the translation, it means, "be right, then go (forward)."

I won't stand idly by and let this site slide down the tubes AGAIN. I stand by everything I said in this message thread, and I have received a remarkable number of backchannel messages and email supporting my stance on the issue.

Good Night and God Bless to all...

[quote]Originally posted by MauserLugers:
<strong>....John, shut this damn thread off and lets move on!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey Bill...!!!

Are you kidding me??? [img]smile.gif[/img]

BTW: 1938 is my first guess on your Banner Question (great post!!!) - but I'm still trying to find the dates for the Banners without the sear safety..!!!!

Anyway - RK's post, IMNSHO - has a lot of merit, whether collector or not. I guess I take the view of a passionate advocate, rather then a dyed in the wool collector. On that point, I believe RK's post is well pointed and well said.

Best to you..!

John

Damn, John S., don't embarrass me. I was hoping that was forgotten. I truly admire these men who have the knowledge. They can call me stupid, ignorant, foolish, village idiot-----it does not matter, as long as they give away in a few sentences what took them many years and piles of money to learn.
I will take all the short-cuts that come along. I will not let my pride interfere with my accumulation of knowledge.
This is the real world and the name of the game is to win.

[quote]Originally posted by MauserLugers:
<strong>....I know do not feel or act higher or better than anyone. They are willing to share information, but instead of welcoming them and accepting them, they are questioned....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Now - I want to respond to your post.....

I believe you are wrong.

I presume I am a collector. I have a collection worth tens of thousands of dollars. Maybe more. I DO share my information - and have spent tens of thousands of dollars accumulating that information.

FOR THAT - I STILL do not feel the need to belittle ANYONE on their initial quest for information - whether they are a newcomer, or are NOT a collector. If they are passionate about the hobby - then they have a right to know.

IMNSHO - Who frigging cares if a person is an "expert"? If they can't share their knowledge without belittling the person making the request - they are less a gentleman, then a collector. Are they different then a new collector who may be them, given their resources? No. Should they be held "above" the rest of us? No. If they can't share their knowledge without belittling the new-comer, are they "above" us? No. In fact - my view is that this is a hobby where we all learn from each other. When that is a perverse avocation, rather then intellectual exchanges - then we all lose. Not what it is - but rather, what the knowledge might become. Which is the format of this forum.

To those that don't understand that facet of collecting - then I expect they will, indeed - go away - as there is no challenge to learn. Rather, they will believe they are the teachers, rather then the students - and have nothing more to learn. That ideogram is directly contrary to what this Forum is all about.

John D.

Mauserlugers, I disagree with your post about 50 year old references. I feel these books are invaluable as the writers actually held the Lugers in their hands, examined them and reported their findings. This was in the days before 'boosting' and fakery was the norm. I see posts that Costanzo is wrong because someone else said so, or has (re) written a book based upon the knowledge of those before them, this applies to some of the other writers too. Just where is the more current information coming from? I suppose that thousands of Lugers have become available in the last few years that prove the information that came before is inaccurate, and that the authors have actually held the items in their hands and have the expertise to decide if they are original or not. Whenever I see this I am suspect as to the verifiable source of this 'new' information. If I feel that it is significant, I also feel it is my right to request the source of this information, rather than to take it at face value just because someone has published a book, or books, on the subject. Anyone can write a book given enough resources, but is the source of those resources accurate? I'll go with the 'oldie but goodies' anytime, mainly because they were written before fakes were the norm. I feel that it has been proven more than once on this forum that even forensic testing is needed to determine if an item is faked or not, not many of us are willing to go to that extent to verifiy what is, or is not, original, I sure am not, but some are all too willing to accept, without question, the writings of the more recent authors on the subject of Lugers without giving any thought to the credence of their writings. PROVE to me why Harry Jones, Kenyon, Datig, Costanzo, Reese, Walters and others are wrong! Until then, I will trust to the older examiners/authors who reported what they found at the time they found it. I had intended to avoid involvement in this thread but felt that your comment deserved a opposing view. If these 'newly' found experts can't stand the heat, perhaps they sould stay out of the kitchen. If I wrote a book, I would welcome comments of any nature, it would assist me in developing information based upon these comments. I regret the loss of some of these experts based upon their lack of tolerance of being questioned, but that is their choice, not mine.

Hi John, and John,
First, you know I respect you two and your opinions and although we have disagreed before and probably will in the future, we can all state our opinions without over reacting. I feel we all agree that we should have manners and be respectful to all, whether here on the forum or out in everyday life. That said, this lumping all "experts" as being power hungry and looking for attention and having huge ego's isn't correct, and should not be tolerated here either, just the same as being dis-respectful should not be tolerated. There are bad apples in every bushel, but that doesn't make the whole bushel bad. Perhaps Roadkill had some merit to his comments, but not all collectors are as he depicts them, and most are more than willing to share. They know that this is a rather dying breed and without new blood and new torch barers, the crucial knowledge to keep things on the up and up is going to be lost in a very short time!

Let's not forget how this thread started and by whom. Alex, a newcomer to the Forum...

Alex; if you are still here and reading, just realize we are just a big disfunctional family and somehow we seem to get through that dreaded Christmas Day dinner...swear we will never do it again..but then always look forward to next year !

Regards,

Pete.. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Hi Herb,
The old books are a great reference and all should read them, but you should know that you should not believe everything in them. First, they were written when information was hard to gather, when you actually had to run across the country to look at something, and then you only collected informatin from the few fellow collectors that you knew. Most was by hearsay or over the phone. Sources like Auto Mag have proven lots of information printed in the older books to be wrong. This is not putting the authors or anyone down, as it was thought at that time to be correct. Since then, thousands of imports have come into this country, and through the internet one can collect serial numbers and record information from all over the world. If you want to believe that rear connecting pins can be un-numbered on Mauser WWII Lugers, then so be it. If you want to believe that black plastic magazines and grips are correct on 1939 Lugers, then so be it. If you want to believe that the inside side plate number doesn't mean a thing, then so be it. All the books have mistakes in them whether they were printed 50 yrs ago or 5 yrs ago. Do you actually think the author looked at all the Lugers he writes about in person? It is said that the 1904 in Kenyon's book is not correct. It is said that there are no Japanese marked Lugers. Lugers are labeled wrong all the time -- for instance the 1920 and 1923 commercials. They were actually produced just the opposite of how they are labeled. Don't get me wrong, as I have all the older books and references and I enjoy them and there is a lot of information in them, but not all of it is correct. For instance, in Kenyons book he doesn't list a 1938 Eagle K police Banner. Does that mean there is not such a variation? All references are good and all have good information.

Hello Bill,

I agree with your discussion about the new and older books, completely !

I do enjoy reading the older books just to gain the historical appreciation of luger collection from the perspective of 30-50 years ago...

I think one of the most fascination reads for me was in Fred Datig's book, when he relays the story about going to Germany and actually visiting with Georg Luger Jr. at his home...that story is priceless.

I also bought a newer book, The Navy Luger; expecting it to be more of a Navy luger ID tool and a listing of sighted luger database (i.e. similar to Jan Still's books...). To my surprise (and initial disappointment), this Navy Luger book had none of this info. but was filled with the fabric of the history of the Germany Imperial Navy...what a wonderful surprise...

Regards,

Pete...

Wow!! I just dropped in -- it's 4am here. I doubt that Alex or LA Reporter and myself had any intention of stirring up such a debate over this. When I made my first request for information here, I was very politely welcomed to the forum by John S. and others. It was a pleasure to ask questions and get answers in a respectful and informative way. I soon realised that posts by Either neophites or even experienced people that could not be answered recieved no replies. Sooner or later the ones that were not answered were either rephrased or additional info on the topic was given and they were answered promptly. A hobby needs to constantly grow and attract new people or sooner or later it will die from lack of interest. I doubt anyone here wants to see another banned. My main point when I first answered this thread was to show that a wrong word such as "ignorant or fool" in a new conversation with someone can raise the new person's hackles. I still think nothing bad was intended, just said too strongly to start with. This all could have been avoided just by stating that the individual has no idea (ignorant) of what he has so make sure that you do before you purchase it. Every new luger owner is one more luger that someone learns about, even if it was redone or a true rarity. Sorry if I raised everyones temper with any of my posts. Again, this is a great site and there are very few negative experiences and hope it will stay that way. God Bless.

Some of the people here have to lighten up a little. Poor old Alex comes here to the experts to ask what he thought was a simple question . He gets some real good advice from most and one sarcastic/biting comment from one seemingly bitter individual . I have asked many questions myself here as I am new to Lugers and 99% have recieved honest answers . Alex I too have felt the sting of Garfields comments. Sorry Garfield we cant all be experts like you. Not a very good way to welcome a potential new luger collector into the fold . He may very well be saving a Luger from the scrap heap or rotting away in some attic some where. Alex, I for one look forward to seeing your new acquisition . I also have found many gentlemen here , John, Mauserlugers, Tom Heller etc .Garfield lighten up, your expertise would better serve all of us , including yourself , if you werent so grumpy .
Remember 9-11, Lt. Cory Cuneo NYPD
Emergency Service Unit (ESU)

Hello Cory,

Thanks for your excellent post.

You are right; 9/11 and your police work keeping our country safe are the important things in life.

We might all be taking this luger hobby a bit too seriously.

Glad to hear from you on the Forum !!!

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Hi,
I know I shouldn't say anymore about this but, ... poor old Alex ... as you label him, did not exactly come clean with all the information. He did not tell us who had this Luger or much about it at all and asked if it is a good deal for $175, which was way too cheap for a nice Luger. This raised some questions as to whether Alex was being taken. If Alex had stated in the beginning that this pistol belonged to a close friend of his fathers, and did not leave you wondering just who had it, the reply would have been totally different. I felt the original question was un-answerable and by not sharing all the information he had, it led to a lot of speculation which all pointed in the direction of Alex being cheated or taken. I'm not going to defend Garfied's actions, as he can defend himself, but I do feel this was kind of a set up.

Garfield's comments, which sometimes may seem a bit abrasive, are usually straight, to-the-point, and technically and historically accurate.

From the viewpoint of this relative newcomer that's all that counts.

Just my 2 cents.
Luke

Mauserlugers and others. It was very late when I wrote my response about the references. My intent, apparently not obvious, was not to discard the more recent writers comments in favor of the older references, but to point out that if new information does become available from whatever source, if the author does not reveal this source, but mearly stated that Jones, etc is wrong, I feel he has left himself open to questions of what his authoritive sources are. I will not just take his word for it, and feel justified if I question him/her on it. If the author feels insulted by this and refuses to divulge his information than I feel I have the right to refuse to accept it, and will continue to accept the older information as correct until actually proven wrong.

Herb,
As new information becomes available, it is not always as simple as stumbling upon the information in the "Book of Luger" and we find everything is laid out in textbook form. Much of the information comes from years of gathering data, and then applying common sense to what you have gathered. MauserLugers commented on the 1920 and 1923 Commercials, and that new data indicates that the old data was flawed in applying the 1923 date. After data was gathered on the five digit so called 1923 Commercials, it became apparent that DWM merely started production and serial numbers on the commercial models following WWI right where they left off in 1914. When the serial numbers reached the 90,000 range, DWM apparently made the decision not to use a six digit serial number. At this time DWM apparently made the decision to use the military style of serial numbering using a number with a letter suffix on their commercial pistols. Logically, they started with the letter suffix i which is the 9th letter of the alphabet. Had DWM started in the very beginning of production with the Model 1900 and numbered all the commercials in the military style, when they started with the 100 thousandth commercial Luger, it would have been in the i letter suffix block. There are no undated commercial Lugers with any letter suffix before the letter suffix i.
As far as I know, the term 1923 Commercial first shows up in Fred Datig's book and he offers no supporting data as to where it came from. It has always been accepted, as no research had previously been offered to explain that the model was actually a continuation of the 1914 Commercial and was produced before 1923.
If you look on page 139 of "Luger Variations" you will find the information that the Erfurt LP08 was made from 1914 thru 1918. Through research we now feel fairly comfortable with the knowledge that there were no Erfurt LP08's manufactured after 1914. I don't know that any hard evidence has been offered to prove that the data in "Luger Variations" is wrong and that none were made, but just the simple fact that none have shown up and it is accepted by the Luger collecting fraternity that none were made after 1914.

Johnny, There is information that Erfurts did exist in 1918 as evidenced by the double dated 1918/1920 examples. The confusion I believe comes from the fact that so many Lugers were assembled by Erfurt using DWM parts and vice-versa that a true Luger actually totally manufactured by either is questionable at best during this time frame due to the Great War demands. As is documented, DWM did what ever they damn well pleased as far as numbering was concerned, continuing consecutive numbering until the end of the contract rather than beginning again at the end of each year as did Erfurt. All of this is confusing when trying to establish an exact, or close, date of manufacture using dates and numbers. The Kentucky Whisky is kicking in about now, I had best leave it as is.

Herb,
Maybe I need a drink to understand your reply. There is no question that there are 1918 Erfurt P08's, just no 1918 Erfurt LP08's. The 1920 Reichswehr property mark would have no bearing on this data at all.
Where does the "fact" come from that so many Lugers were assmbled by Erfurt using DWM parts and vice-versa. Please reveal your source.
I have no knowledge of DWM numbering Imperial contract pistols other than in the required manner. As to commercial pistols, they numbered them in the manner they considered the easiest to keep records.
I don't know if you have Jan Still's Imperial Lugers, but according to his information on military contract Lugers, beginning in 1912 DWM started over each year at the beginning of the alphabet. If you have information to the contrary which states that DWM did not in fact do this, would you reveal your source?

I know I shouldn't say anymore about this but, ... poor old Alex ... as you label him, did not exactly come clean with all the information. He did not tell us who had this Luger or much about it

Geez we getting kind of paranoid here ? Do we really think Alex left out who had this gun on purpose ? For what possible reason ? Because maybe one of us would go out and get it 1st ? We dont know who he is , where he lives or who had the Luger. I read the post and saw nothing untoward about it. He was asking a general question like is a luger worth $175 bux. Seemed obvious to me he knew nothing about them but was anxious to learn. Very simply he could be asked more info such as make,model,condition, matching #, who has it before an answer is given . Thats what these forums should be about, an exchange of information. No reason to snottily tell the guy to go buy a book or something like that . Like my grandma used to say , "if you aint got nuthin nice to say dont say nuthin", good very easily scare off a potential hobby mate, ESU .

I agree with Cory. An answer along the lines of "IF it's an actual Luger and IF it's all in one piece and IF it appears to function it's probably a good buy. Can you tell us more about it ?", is quite appropriate.

I'd be surprised many of us would turn down a complete Luger cannon and frame in reasonable condition for $175 ?

Hi Cory, Stu,
I agree that there is no need to give replies of a snotty nature, and I agree that we have to help all the new comers in this hobby. That said, I think you guys are all to trusting and optimistic that everyone is on the honest side and no one is trying to take, cheat, or take advantage of you. There are a lot of bad guns floating around and a lot of just plain crooks in the gun business whose only goal is to make a fast buck. The only thing about Alex's post that influenced most to say buy, was the price of $175. Still, in my opinion, the information given originally did not warrent a "buy it" response as it sounded like Alex could have been taken. What if the price had been $600? Would most still have said "buy it". Again, some of us have been taken more than once and we are hesitant of these super deals and without more information given to give an answer, all we can do is speculate. Which if I'm going to speculate I would rather tell a guy to walk away from something that just doesn't sound right, like an $175 Luger. Better to be happy with a purchase than always dissappointed with it, regardless of the price. Good collecting!

John D.
"Oh - has Jan been telling folks I banned him, again? For the record - he isn't banned. He chooses not to post."

This is an erroneous statement: I have not been telling anyone that I have been banned. I didn't post because I have been on a trip.
Jan