Back to my stock (picture attached). I notice that in the Gortz - Sturgess books, Vol. III, Page 1325 there is a picture of a stock also on page 1324 not of walnut grain wood. On 1325 are the words: "very rarely the discs may be made of brass rather steel. I am thinking that my stock may be a little on the rare side. I am glad that I didn't part with it for $ 250.00
Thanks
Jack

OK Jack, let's cut to the chase here. Gently screw out one of the stock attaching screws and let's have a look. That should tell us with little doubt what it is.

While Görtz and Sturgess is arguably the gold standard for Luger information, it is by no means infallible. I keep the electronic version on my computer and refer to it frequently. But it does have some errors, and includes some information based on fakes and/or forgeries.

Many of the leading Navy Parabellum collectors have participated in this thread, and I think it safe to say so far none of them believe your stock is an original one. I have a couple of originals, and have looked at/handled a good many more. There are some differences that seem obvious to me, but I will leave it to others to see if they concur.

1. Görtz and Sturgess not withstanding, I do not believe ANY original stocks had brass disks. I have seen a couple that looked fairly yellow or brassy, but that is from dried oil (probably boiled linseed) tinting them a bit. On the other hand, there most certainly have been replicas made that use brass disks.

2. The radius of the curve where the stock is cut away for the toe of the holster is smaller on an original than on yours, resulting in the arc interecting the top and bottom edges further from the attaching end.

3. The originals have a much less pronounced curve at the heel and toe, those corners look more square on an original.

An original, unissued, stock

Görtz and Sturgess not withstanding, I do not believe ANY original stocks had brass disks. I wouldn't touch a stock with a brass disk thinking it to be original.

I notice that in the Gortz - Sturgess books, Vol. III, Page 1325 there is a picture of a stock also on page 1324 not of walnut grain wood. NONE of the original Imperial era stocks are of walnut grain wood. This is an important distinction. They are made of EUROPEAN walnut. Nothing to do with the American conception of walnut grain wood. EUROPEAN walnut is a lighter yellowish/brown with some swirls. I have taken leather off of original stocks many times and the wood hidden for a century is quite light in color. It darkens over 100 years. it is NOT speckled like maple.

Hi Jack,
I have to tell you that I'm one of those annoying people that never lets a reference go by unchecked. What makes you think that the stock pictured on page 1324 in Görtz/Sturgess Vol.III, green edition, is "not of walnut grain wood"? Also, while it is true that Sturgess states that "very rarely the discs may be made of brass rather than steel", it's significant that he couldn't find a single example to illustrate his point.
No one is trying to talk you into selling a valuable original Navy stock at a bargain price, the very suggestion is an insult to the forum members who have merely tried to help you.
Norm

Norme:
I appreciate what everyone has advised me on this matter; really I do. As I always have. I am not a Luger expert and not an expert at researching Luger information. Also, I don't know of the above mentioned authors methods. But, I think I am like other novices in that I hear "nevers" and look in my best resource materials and find a "rarely."
I will just hush up about it.
Thanks
Jack

Jack, It's a "discussion" board. No need to just hush up about it. Just discuss it! Did you take out a stock iron screw? (see post #42) That will tell you something..

Definitly not brass!

Eric

Would you please post full length side views like mine?

Thanks

Mike

It's a great set - worthy of proper photographs!
The stock would be a surprise if it's authentic.
The marks are hard to find and not consistently applied, even more than holsters.

We are all very interested in the pistol markings.
Topside both flanks.

Whole view!
 

At your request! I believe I purchased this one from George Anderson years ago!! Jerry did the leather work including duel black mag holder!! Tks to both my Heros!!

Thanks Eric.

Jack: Compare the shape of yours to the pictures Eric and I posted. You can clearly see the differences I pointed out in my earlier message. Ignoring the disc metal completely, the stock itself is not quite the right shape.

The pistol is still beautiful, and a fine example of a 1908 Navy (I hate that name, since they were actually made in 1914!)

An Imperial and Weimer side by side~

Actually, both Imperial. It's just that one continued to serve after 1918.

I have a screw out. What are the specs? Length, shoulder dimension, number of threads? It is roughly 39 mm in length and roughly 18 threads. The bottom of the head is squared off and the head is approx. 2 mm thick. Anything else?
Thanks
Jack

Genuine screws are only threaded for a short distance on the end, long length of the screw body is not threaded.

18/39 = approx . metric pitch of 2mm, too coarse.

A picture would be quick to tell.

Light is not great but I got a decent picture. The bluing looks good.
Jack

Jack,
that is not what I expect to see in an original screw; I just pulled one and it has only 3/16" threads on the end- a total of about 5-6 threads- which is typical of originals.

Aftermarket screws generally have threads like yours, and are sometimes threaded all the way from end to head.

Jack, Bad news! This screw is representative and kin of the other faults found on this stock and is pretty much the proverbial last nail in the coffin. Hey..at least you can rest easy now. You know with no doubt what it is.

Not so quick. This stock is old and you can't fake age. I am pretty confident that it existed before reproductions were being made, like 50 or 60 years ago. When this stuff wasn't selling for anything more that a couple of bucks; who would make any, as it would have cost more than selling price. Also, more to come tomorrow when I get access to another Dr. Gortz book. And yes, this is all very interesting isn't it? We are working on items produced in a very different era under very different forces ending and starting in German production in industry and in government.
Thanks again to all involved.
Jack

Not so quick? Nothing quick about accurate analysis and comparison to known original stocks.

We are working on items produced in a very different era under very different forces ending and starting in German production in industry and in government. UHH.. Jack, no we are not. Known original production stopped when the war ended or even previously. There was no transition ending and starting again. There was no transition to Weimar era stocks..because the Germans were swimming in surplus. Any Weimar marked Navy stocks came from WW1. Again, because the Germans were swimming in surplus.

If you must investigate this further.. look to the 1970's. That's likely the birthdate of your stock.

Offered on Ebay today an Odin artillery stock which was made at the same time as CAP Black's Navy version. Note the tight, short grain of the maple as compared to the long thin straight grain of European Walnut.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHOULDER-STO...sAAOSw32lYxwB2

George, was European Walnut the wood of choice for everything wooden in regards for lugers? I ran across this reference and there are different varieties~ http://wenig.com/technical-info/wood-descriptions

Walnut Varieties~ http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/...en-stocks.html

The German's used European walnut for rifle stocks, Luger grips and Luger magazine bottoms until the supply of walnut began to run out in 1916 at which point they used beech. The stocks for artillery and navy Lugers were always made with European walnut.

Jack: I understand why you want to cling to the idea that your stock is real. Been there, done that. But it isn't and wishing and hoping isn't going to change it.

Norm is one of the most respected and knowlegeable Navy collectors on the planet, keeper of The Navy List, prominent auctions houses have gone to him to authenticate Navy Lugers. Jerry is the foremost expert in Luger holsters, the guy we all turn to for his knowlege. As part of that he has extensive knowlege of the Navy (and Artillery) stocks. George, as a dealer, has probably sold hundreds of legitimate stocks and handled thousands of them.

Yet you cannot seen to accept their opinions.

While I'm not in their league, I have spent a great deal of time studying the German Navy pistols and accessories and building a comprehensive collection Navy Lugers and accessories.

I have offered specific reasons why your stock in not correct. While everyone has told you the brass disc in incorrect, you continue to cling to an unfortunate error in the great Sturgess books.

You refuse to accept that the wood is wrong, searching for some support for an explanation that doesn't exist. They were walnut. Full stop. There are plenty of real ones from the end of production in 1917, many never issued, all of which are walnut.

I gave other reasons, ignoring the disc and wood, of why your stock is not an original. You haven't responded to them, so I'll remind you:

The radius of the arc where the wood is recessed for the nose of the holster is too large on your stock. Real ones have a noticably smaller arc, almost a full half circle. Compare yours on the left to a real one on the right. Look at the photos of real ones already posted.

The curves at the heel and toe of your stock are too large. Real ones have a very square appearance with only a small round off.

Again, yours on the left.

Finally, others pointed out the problem with your screws. Yours are typical of what is seen in replica stocks. Here is yours compared to a real one. Yours on top.

These are significant differences. There are others, but these are more than sufficiant to demonstrate the stock is a replica.

Mike:
I went through this same scenario with wooden holsters a few years ago. Was told and beat on for days and weeks about a picture in a book about such a holster. And then I explained that my father had brought one back. They still said: "can't be." Then I think it was Mauro who spoke up and said: "they are real but rare, I have two of them."
Jack

I like that film clip; a lot. and it has a purpose. I even appreciate it.
Thanks
Jack

Mike,
give it up. CAP is convinced it is real and one of a kind- just let it go.

I submit pages 31 and 32 of Dr. Gortz's book: The Navy Luger. I am not making any claims. You all tell me what your take is.
These are submitted to me by a friend.
Thanks for your consideration.
Jack

Jack, I have to admire persistence but many books contain errors and this one is no exception. The statement that stocks after 1910 were fitted with brass discs should tell you all you need to know about this mistake. This statement is clearly not the case as 99.9% of stock discs as we know, are steel. Let us consider that PERHAPS some tiny percentage of original Navy Imperial stocks did have a brass disc. That's OK with me because I have learned to never say never. Putting that aside..for now we backtrack to the other characteristics of your stock that literally scream NOT ORIGINAL. There is no accounting for those and in total the whole comes together as an impossibility, brass discs or no.
Errors like this in famous books written by famous people misinform and lead us astray..but rest assured Herr Gortz knows that all discs in all stocks after 1910 were not and are not brass and that is what this statement of error indicates. Likely a translation mistake from German to English. Nothing more.

Hi Jack,
Me again, the guy who ALWAYS checks references. I read pages 31 and 32 in "The Navy Luger" twice, where does it say "not walnut"? As the keeper of "The Navy List" I am in contact with Navy collectors all over the world, and I have yet to hear of a brass marking disc on an authentic Navy stock (the List not only lists guns but stocks as well).
As to your Portuguese pouch, here is a little primer, probably wasted on you:
Authentic Navy pouches can be distinguished by their distinctive strap sheaths, 88 mm in length. Type 1 pouches (photo #1) were intended to be worn on a shoulder strap and there is no provision for belt carry, Type 2 (photo #2) were for belt wear and you can see how the stitching was modified to accommodate a belt. Portuguese pouches could be worn on a strap or a belt and they're attachment sheaths were lengthened to 100 mm to accomplish this (photo #3).
Norm

All books are often amended over time except for the Bible!! Old and New Testament!!!Eric

I have no dog in this fight - I would like to point out that "The Navy Luger" by Gortz and Sturgess' book are likely based on the same facts, since Sturgess wrote 'his' book with Gortz before he died.

The Navy Luger - by Joachim Gortz (Author), John Walter (Author)

"Luger"- Pistole Parabellum - History of the "Luger System" by Geoffrey L Sturgess and Joachim Görtz

Better say all books after all, Eric! Turns out it was amended (compiled, re-compiled, translated and re-translated) stacks of times! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_translations

Before the 600s, it was passed on mostly by oral traditions--and as a counselor at law, I'm sure you know how '"word of mouth" has some problems!

Eric,
sorry, but the Bible was not written by a single person, but is a collection of sub-books; and then translated from one language to another- and as a translation altered much in its history- both intentionally and un-intentionally... JMHO.

I respectfully submit No one knows what the "Bible" really said;
so in my opinion it is a poor example to show that books are not "amended".:soapbox:

I realize I'm beating my head agains the wall, but . . .

The most recent (2012) book on handguns of the German navy, Faustfeurwaffen der deutschen Marinen 1849 - 1918 states on page 215 "After 1910 a steel marking disc was inserted in the wooden shoulder stocks."

The actual ReichsMarineAmt directive ordered that discs similar to those used on the Navy's Gew98's be used. The Gew98 marking discs are all steel. Here are two, one on a 1906 DWM Navy Contract rifle and one on a 1916 Spandau issued to the Navy.

Finally, the idea that they may have switched to brass at some point is, frankly, preposterous. Brass was a strategic war material in critically short supply, so much so that the Navy even asked the sailors to forgo the brass nameplates on their ditty boxes to conserve the metal. They switched from brass to steel whenever they could, not the other way around. Yet my unissued stock is from the tail end of Navy P.04 production, among the last made. It has a steel disc, just like the rest of the real ones and my early 1906 one.

One last comment, then I shall give up trying to help and/or educate you.

Disc aside, you still have not addressed any of the other problems your stock has. Look in "The Navy Luger" or any of the large number of photos of original Navy stocks in books and on the web. Carefully compare the shape to yours. It's the wrong shape, made out of the wrong wood, with the wrong disc and an attaching iron held on by the wrong screws.