SIEGER:

Dear Mauser George:

Let me answer you respectfully.
“That’s the only way to do it”

To each his own!
“Absolutely”

Believe it or not, professional opinions often differ. “
Yes, they certainly do. Many times it is due to that fact that some people simply repeat what they have heard”

If you feel the Luger in question is 100% correct, feel free to buy one just like it in the future, but don't expect everyone with almost 40 years of experience to agree with you.
“I am not asking you, nor do I expect anyone with almost 40 years of experience to agree with me or anything I said in regards to this posting”

From the photos presented here, I have great doubts regarding the correctness of the grips shown. This, however, is my opinion, which, quite obviously, you do not share.
“Yes sir, you are 100% correct in your thinking in this regard”

By the way, there are some other elements of the grips that make me doubt their correctness, but I'll not share these here, for fear of causing hard feelings, or stepping on someone else's feet.
“That’s very considerate of you”

Happy trails to you
“Most days are happy and full of adventure, thanks”

Sieger

PS: Are we on the same page in regards to what causes the left Luger grip to chip by the safety? Or is it still your feeling as you described as an air tight fit is what often chips the grip, yielding the “million dollar chip” often seen on well used Lugers. I ask as you neglected to address this concern and I was just wondering what your feeling is in this regard. Possibly I am mistaken.

George

Mauser George: You seem to be a level headed/reasonable member...In your opinion what would be the value of my rig? I'd like to know if I got a "good" deal or not. Thanks for your input!

Jason:

You are more than welcome. Please know I do not consider myself an expert on Lugers nor any other type of firearm. I own a few Lugers and various other German WW1 & WW11 handguns and like many of us, have a great deal to learn. I do however have an excellent library on the subject.

Everyone may have a difference of option and that is fine. Everyone on the board is more than willing to lend a helping hand. Many forum members really know their stuff while a few others want you to believe they do or this is the way it seems to me!

I seldom give advice as there are far more knowledgeable folks on the forum that are light years ahead of myself in the area of collecting.

Thanks for you complement as being level headed/reasonable member. I am not the person to ask if you got a good deal! Reason being is that I pretty much only collect what comes my way at an affordable price.

Your 1941 Luger rig looks very nice. It has two matching magazines which is not often seen and a nice holster. What it may be worth all depends who is interested in purchasing it. For sake of argument, I believe it’s value would be somewhere around $4000.00 give or take if you found the right buyer. If you are happy with what you paid that’s all that matters. Once you do some research and build a library, you will be in a better position when you purchase your second Luger!

The best of luck.

George

Level Head
 

Hi:

Simply stated, something is worth what someone else will pay you for it. Just who that someone is will often determine what he or she is willing to pay for just about anything.

Sieger

Million Dollar Chip
 

Dear George:

If I'm reading you correctly, you believe that the chip occurs only when the grips are removed.

It would be helpful if you would get a copy of the original DWM blueprint of the grip. An ability to read Geman would also be helpful here.

The grip fit at the back of the safety to the frame is a tight fit. Wood may shrink, but it may also expand through the application of oil, water or other moisture. When this occurs, a pressure point will be created at that very critical point. The pressure has to be relieved, one way or another, and the wood simply gives way here through a crack.

I hope that is an adequate answer.

Sieger

Sieger:

Reading me correctly is not at all difficult as all that is required is the ability to read and understand what is written. Sorry, I do not have access to an original DWM blueprint nor do I have the ability to read, write or speak German. What you need is a good spell checker!

All your Mumbo-Jumbo is just going in circles. You do have a unique ability of putting a spin on your messages that seem to go round and round and go nowhere yet always saying something different.

What is it going to be next, the walnut was not dried correctly and if I could read German I would understand the German wood drying process?

First it was air tight fit, second you claim it is expansion & contraction due to water or other moisture.

Stay cool and have a nice day in the big city of 8 million!

George

PS: Please drop the "Dear" in your posting as its meaning is not relevant here!

Final Remarks
 

Lieber Mauser Georg:

Mach deinen Scheiss alleine, du Klugscheisser!

Sieger

I have always assumed that the million dollar chip comes from hasty/careless removal, not a natural drying process. Using the latter rationale, if it is due to drying then it will happen to all of them eventually and none of us should take a $ hit on a chipped grip Luger when it is going to happen to all at some point in time?
dju

Dry Grip Issue
 

Dear David:

I really don't think that drying is the issue, as a dry grip would grow farther away from the frame, not closer to it.

One thing is for sure. You should be very careful when removing that grip!

Sieger

Sieger:

I, guess, then, not!

In this case, "LESS IN MORE".

Regards,

George

DJU:

Have you ever heard of the: “Air Tight Fit” theory, it is posted above.

Sorry, I just could not resist!

George

Sieger:

It’s been fun, however I need to get back to work.

Have a nice day and I look forward to reading your informative postings.

George

"do your own $hit, you smart a$$e$!" Why would you say that kind of thing Sieger?:nono:

Jason.... Getting back to your luger..... Since you are getting very good at pictures, I would appreciate a shot of the inside of the side plate. What I am looking for it the number that should be stamped inside.

IMO your gun is right as rain based on what I can see. Great find with 2 matching mags.

Bluebook value is about $4000 on the gun and the holster is worth another $300 or more.

These are "retail" numbers.

All you need is a E/655 tool to complete the rig........

Thanks Tau-delt!, I will try to post a nice clear picture of the backside of the sideplate. If I remember correctly the number 75 is stamped on it, but I'll check. The tool in my holster almost looks like it was stamped E/655 but it is worn off some. Anyway thank you for the informaation and check back for the new pics.

Jason... Take a pic of the tool as well if you have the time......

The number 75 is stamped on the inside of sideplate. I couldnt get a perfect pic but I think you'll be able to see it. Thanks for taking the time to look at my Luger!!!

Jason.... 75 is the number you would want to see inside. From roughly 1939 forward Mauser stamped a number one more than the first two digits of the full serial number on the inside of the side plate on most of their military production.

IMO that it the original side plate for the gun.

Thanks for posting. The goal here and on other forums is to learn as we go. Every new gun is part of the process.

I would be pleased to have yours in my collection.

English Translation
 

Your's is a literal translation, but not an historically accurate one.

The first part of the sentence is a quote from the King of Saxony upon his forced abdication in 1918. A better translation would be..."Now your free to do your "own thing". A Klugscheisser is better translated as a "know it all", but in a town clown sort of way.

Given the tone of Mr. George's remarks to me, arrogant and condescending, I think I was quite civilized with him.

Sieger

Hello guys.

I don't post often, but I follow the new postings on almost a daily basis. I would like to thank everyone for a most entertaining thread. It has been a while since I have been this eager to log on and check out the new postings.

Jason, it is difficult to say with absolute certainty from pictures, but I believe that your gun is correct and worth in the neighborhood of $3,500 to $4,000. With that being said, two-matched-magazine rigs always make me a little nervous, and it is impossible to tell from the pictures if the magazines are original to your gun. With all the scrutiny your gun has received, frankly I am surprised that no-one has attacked the magazines yet.

Magazines are the most tinkered-with part of these guns, and more people get burned (myself included) with matched magazines that with any other luger alteration or enhancement. I can assure you that there are many more lugers with matching magazines now than there were at the end of WWII. I have seen many, many lugers with magazines that have had their numbers ground or scrubbed and then re-numbered to match the gun they are currently paired with. Nothing adds value to a luger faster than adding a matched magazine to the deal. A very wise collector once told me to invest in a pair of digital calipers. When measuring the round knobs of the magazine bottoms, the measurements must be the same from top-to-bottom, and side-to-side. If the top to bottom reading is off by as little as 1/2 mm, be very careful.

Thanks for reading.

Doug

Sieger:

Say what you please, but the facts speak for themselves. I truly appreciate you being so civilized when dealing with me!

Why don’t we just stick with the topic at hand which is Jason 1941 Luger. It’s ok to disagree, however his Luger, including the grips in my option are right as rain!

George

Jason
Nice looking luger. My estimate would be closer to 95%. As for value, if the mags are original around $3000 to $3500. The holster $250 to 300. Difficult to appraise from pictures. Bill

In regards to the grips. I have a 1941 byf with a "p" suffix which puts its production just before Jason's luger with a "Q" suffix. My left grip is different in that it is numbered to the gun but both are marked with an E/655 and a "D" stamp(workers mark?). This leads me to believe that his grips are original to the period but I would have of way of knowing if his left the Mauser factory on his gun.

It's a good thing this is the "New Collector" section.

I am done with this post :mad:

LugerVern:
Why is that ?
dju

Amen Brother!!!
 

Dear LugerVern:

Amen brother, amen!!!

Sieger:typing:

Hey Gents,
Honestly I go back and forth on this one. There are a few things that bother me.......
1. GESICHERT is too white, all my guns are yellowed
2. There appears to be no typical holster wear on the end of the barrel.
Overall I think it is Ok but the pictures are not good enough to determine the originality. A hands on inspection among other examples would be best IMHO. Here are a couple byf 41's from my collection for comparison.
Cheers,
A different Jason

Jason.... Good looking pair. Could not make out the SN so I need to ask if these are part of the Black Grip Study I have going on over on the other luger forum ???

I just got back from a gun shop about 50 miles away from where I live, I had a gentleman look my Luger over real good. Why didn't anybody tell me this was considerd a "Black Widow"?? I guess maybe I shouldve known...He took a magnifying glass to it and it was his opinion that it had never been refinshed, it had correct grips, and that the holster was original in 85%+. He pulled both grips and opened the chamber took his glass looked it all over, looked up at me with a grin and said "I bet this thing hasn't had 50 rounds thru it".:rockon:

Scratch that "black widow" remark. I spoke with him again and he says alot of people call the Lugers with the blued trigger etc "black widows" Ive seen that term quite a bit in my recent attempt on researching Lugers, does it just have to do with the plastic grips I'm assuming?:confused:

Hi Jason, "Black Widow" is a term that was coined a few years ago to describe the 20% or so, of the 1941 and 1942 byf Lugers that were issued with black bakelite grips. This label has caught the popular imagination and these guns are now worth a little more than those with wood grips. Regards, Norm

Photos have limitations as do the human eyes. That being said I think we are looking at what comes close to a mint byf 41 rig. They do exist. That does not scare me at all. The gentleman has the piece and it must be considered original. A rework? One must always consider the possibility, but an absolutely perfect fake (if such a thing exists) would have to considered original until shown to be otherwise. If excellent pieces are considered too good looking to be original ... where does that leave us?? From what I can see, $3000.00 easy for this rig up to perhaps $4500.00 tops. Just my opinion.

If you look at the post that Jason L made on 7/7 (post #67) above in this thread you will see a nice pair of so called Black Widows. Note the black grips and the black plastic mag bottoms.

Jason,

Just for comparison take a look at my posting. Under military lugers, 'Pair of 41s'. About page 2-3. One black widow, one.... Brown Recluse? LOL

FN

"Brown Recluse"--I like that. I think you just coined another name for a specific type of Luger. My byf 42 is a Brown Recluse from this day forward.

Thanks.

Neil

ROTF!!!! I'm famous!!! Infamous???!?!?

FN

Byf 41
 

Sorry to bring up an old post. Especially in the mixed light the Luger was received in. I too am a first time owner with the identical gun. My condition is close with some barrel holster wear and the side plate finish worn also.

The difference I noticed as well as could be seen is that mine has no sanding marks on the flat surfaces and every machined edge is completely sharp.

Like I said I am sorry to bring this up again but the education I got here was really interesting to me.

No mags that match with mine but everything else is correct. Minor pitting as I stated minor holster wear but at least 90% finish on the gun.

You will probably tell me I am dumb but I have fired the gun quite a bit when I got it from the bring back ww11 guy twenty years ago who never fired it since he traded an officer for in in Germany in 1945.

What a fantastic shooting weapon.

My grips fully wrap around and are airtight under the safety lever and have the matching 655 stamp and D stamp and a large V and the matching numbers. And a internal small crack starting on the surface of the inside of the right grip. Wood grain looks different than the op's but wood is wood.

Interesting that I have a somewhat comparable gun to look at reading this thread.

Yellowing paint half missing on the safety levers warning printing.

Bob

Just looking at the pics of the two grips side by side, you can clearly see they are not the same. Raised areas are different, as are the lips on the edges of these raised areas. WaA looks sharp wing edges on the op grips. Was the grip manufacture something that had a lot of discrepancies in it, or should they all be mirror images of each other? I also do see that the op Luger lacks the sharp edges like others shown in the post, JMO