Hot Ammo
 

Dear JonnyC:

Santa brought me a new chronograph for Christmas, so when I'm in Florida next month, I'll try to confirm your findings. I am shooting the Norinco Red box, you didn't mention just what you were shooting above, as there may be substantial differences in the different types of ammo manufactured by Norinco.

What I did experience with the Norinco Red Box was severe breech-block slap. This is when the rear of the breech-block, where the firing pin retainer is, slaps against the rear frame of the Luger. The slap was quite severe in that it made a deep impression on the surface of the frame (breech-block is hardened, frame is soft). The pistol practically jumped out of my hand!

Breech-block slap is among the main reasons for Luger mechanical failure. None of the American made 9mm I've used in the past ever did this! After the first magazine, I retired the red box to my gun room for use in one of my other 9mm pistols.

It's noon here and only 19 degrees. This is about 10 degrees cooler than normal.

Sieger

Hot Ammo
 

Dear Vlim:

Thank you for your contribution.

Around 320 m/sec, out of a 100mm (4 inch) barrel, seems to be the normal German Army load I've also been able to identify (see above post).

I hope you are having better weather than my friends in Berlin are having!!

Thanks again!

Sieger

As I said previously, I had the exact same ammo, box and headstamp, as the OP. That's what was asked about...that's what I discussed...that's what I tested.

I think there is some confusion here. Norinco ammo is safe to use, Russian ammo is too hot.

Russian Ammo
 

Aaron:

I've never tried any of the Russian stuff because most of it is steel cased.

Sieger

Seiger:

First and foremost, why are you addressing me as Dear? I take it you have a situation with Men?

Second, all you do my friend is make me laugh as there is nothing you could possibly say or do that would damper my day!

Third, find someone else to argue with. You are in your own little world, so please stay there.

George

Hot Chinese Ammo
 

Dear George:

Your low-rent comment speaks for itself.

I'm still waiting, calmly, for that 1,400 fps, 124 grain German Army load from you.

Sieger

XOXOXO

Hot Chinese Ammo
 

Dear JonnyC:

I found an interesting post on the net today that might shed some light on both of our positions.

"If it has just NORINCO 9mm on the headstamp, then it is Commercial Norinco and the brass will be on the thin side for reloading. If it has the triangle on the headstamp, then it is Military Spec Norinco ammunition."

and

"We tested some several years ago...Results +P from a G19."

It looks like there are at least two different types of Norinco 9mm out there. I can't remember which head stamp mine has, but I did buy it, off of the net, within the last three years or so.

Exactly what is on your types' case head?


Sieger

Asked and answered...twice.

Do you have a pic of the "Norinco" on the headstamp??? That's a lot of letters to get on a 9mm cartridge head...with the 9mm letters/number as well...

What is this "red box" Norinco ammunition??? Test ammo???

Hot Chinese Ammo
 

Dear Postino:

I'm not an expert on Chinese types of ammo, as I had such a bad experience with the ammo I tried that I was totally turned off by it. The quote from the net above has not been verified by me, rather, it was a passing comment of a poster from 2006.

Go to the Gunbroker.com site and search Norinco 9mm. What should come up is what I purchased off of this site about three years ago. It packaged in either a darker red box or a light blue box. As stated above, I really don't remember the head stamp on the ammo, but it was loaded in very light, thin cases.

This is the red hot stuff I'm referring to. This is what is commonly available for purchase today. This is the stuff that caused severe breech-block slap in my byf 41.

No, it's not test ammo, or it is not marked as such.

I hope that answered your queston.

Sieger

Hot Chinese Ammo
 

Dear JonnyC:

Thanks for the verification.

Sieger:typing:

After some additional reading I expect that the 1400fps story is probably based on the higher muzzle velocity of the SE (Sintered Iron) and mE (iron core) P08 rounds from the WW2 era. Because of their lighter bullet, combined with an unchanged powder charge, the SE especially developed a muzzle speed that exceeded the standard 320m/s (1049) quite a bit.

A test velocity given for the SE round was 395m/s which is some 1295 fps.

Dear Vlim:

Yes, these were very light bullets! Also, they distroyed a barrel very quickly.

Would you happen to know the exact weight of these SE bullets?

Sieger

Well, the barrel certainly is clean afterwards :)

Walter gives the following weights:
6.42 grams for the mE (99gr)
5.87 grams (90.6gr) for the SE).

The standard weight was 8 grams (123.5gr).

I can measure the exact weight differences if needed. Have enough reference specimens (just no loose bullets) over here.

I searched my junk cartridges box looking for that other 9mm brass-bulleted cartridge; couldn't find it...but I did find two 7.65mm Luger cartridges (pretty cruddy until cleaned up) with unusual (to me) looking bullets...(copper???)...

Headstamp says -

DWM
K K
471

And the primer looks to be brass...

If I remember correctly it was forum member, Alx who had the cracking problem.

FN

Postino,

The photo is a bit small, but they are a nice pair of commercial DWM Karlsruhe made 7.65 Para rounds. Bullets can be nickle plated, usually with a steel jacket underneath. Brass primers are pretty much the standard on DWM rounds. 471 is the DWM model number.

Thank You! ;)

I couldn't get my digi-cam to focus that small; so I scanned them...I try to keep a sample of all calibers for reference; I found out the hard way that most reference books have misprints...Not what you want when you're reloading... :D

Lemme see if I can get the other camera to focus that small...Here we go...BTW: they're unfired...What looks like a firing pin dent is the machining (or polishing?) marks on the primer...

I usually use the scanner for the pistol rounds as well. Just select a slightly higher resolution (300 - 600dpi should work well).

Light Bullets
 

Dear Vlim:

The Hornady Reloading Manual list the following as maximum for the respective weights:

90 grain 1,450 fps

100 grain 1,350 fps

124 grain 1,150 fps

FYI


Sieger

Vlim -

What did you use for a backdrop??? I usually use a blue, pink, or yellow towel...Draped directly over the cartridges...

Here's two scans...both at 600dpi...with a dark and a light blue backdrop...

First pic is 7.63mm Mauser; second has the Norinco 9mm at top, and Federal 9mm at bottom...

Chinese Ammo
 

Dear Postion:

Now that you have given me a good look at it, this is definately not the 124 gr Chinese ammo I have.

Mine is in a very "brassy" colored case, your looks like it has more of a copper composition to it. Also, mine is in a much "thinner" case; yours looks like, what I would consider, a normal military style case.

Well, the mystery continues. I'll be testing my ammo upon my upcoming trip to Florida.

Thanks!

Sieger

It could be me; my IBM G96 monitor displays everything very dark. I usually lighten my pics up in PSP to display them better.

Compared to the Federal 9mm, the Norinco case is quite a bit darker. The bullet itself is yellower than the case.

Could anyone tell me the twist of 9mm Parabellum Pistol?

"Submachine Gun Designer's Handbook" says 1/250 RH, could you confirm that?

Yep, as well as that of the 7.65 para / .30 luger version.

Postino:
I've used different back drops for scanning cartridges, the simplest is just a plain piece of paper that I put on top of it (because my scanner has an insert for slide and negative scanning). What also works well is a small white plastic bottle that I cut up so that a U-shaped cover was left over. I put the round on the glass plate, place the U-shaped cover over it and then scan that area. Although it is white, the shadow creates a light grey background.

It's good to know, because the booklet did not say the weapon being a pistol or MP38/40 sub. 7,63 Mauser twist is 1/200 RH.

There are two different ways to break a Luger with too hot a load, too much impulse or too much pressure. Pressure wise the action is quite strong so the usual way of damaging it is with too much impulse. Sieger's breech block slapping is an indication of too much impulse.

I have seen a breech block with the lower front edge blown off, a case of too much pressure. I have no idea what the load was, for all I know it was a compressed load of Bullseye. (I did see a S&W Model 10 that was blown open with a known case full of Bullseye.)

When adjusting a hand load look for the correct bullet weight and velocity combination. If that's right you're unlikely to be too high on pressure unless it's some weird off the wall load.

gentleman; read all the posts with much interstes the prob.with the ammo is presser curve, refer to fokeys book on 34-42 michine guns when tested with us ammo many malfuncons switched to german all prob. went away. about 20-25 years ago in one of the gun books had a artical about the proper presser curve for a luger and what power to use. i work for wiselite arms and we have to match springs to ammo for proper operation
gordie k

Pressure curve has absolutely nothing to do with anything as far as the Luger's functioning is concerned. Impulse has EVERY thing to do with it. The Luger has a RECOIL operated action, not a gas operated action where pressure curve might matter.

The cannon velocity is determined by impulse. The cannon momentum determines functioning. The pressure has fallen to essentially zero before the action unlocks. (Unlike some other recoil operated actions where the timing is such that the action unlocks sooner.) The pressure curve enters into this only insofar as you have to have a pressure curve in order to launch the bullet in the first place. A fast powder vs. a slow powder will make absolutely no difference given the same impulse for both loads.

Type of Powder
 

Hi:

I have to tell you first, that Unspellable is, indeed, a highly respected Professional Engineer in real life, but, here I have to disagree with him and agree with you, based on my 30 plus years of reloading for the Luger.

I have found that loading with a powder similar to the original DWM powder and at the same velocity, does, indeed increase both accuracy and functionality of a Luger.

Powder should be "medium slow". Try Power Pistol or IMR SR 4756, as these are the closest powders I've found to date.

When you can fire a Luger 1,000 times without a function problem, and with extreme accuracy, you have found the right combination.

Sieger