Piet, the magazine markings on the wooden base that you show would be the only markings one would expect to find.

History
 

I had an "interview" with my father to try and find out more information about the Luger.
His story is as follows:
My Great grandfather Gert Hermias van Zyl, died at a early age of 44 years. Striked by lightning on the farm Doornpan, near Schweizer Reneke, in the North West Province on 17 January 1917. His wife (my great grandmother) married again to Jacob Johannes Malan (lived 19/4/1881 to 7/3/1963) He was involved in the British battle against Germany in the German Colony of Deutsch Sud West Afrika (I hope I have this right) Jacob (Jaap) was a Sergeant in the Army of General Smuts (South Africa). At that stage South Africa was a British Colony and entered the fight on the order of the Queen of England.
According to my father, Jaap and his fellow soldiers encountered a German machine gun post. They took control of the post (which was the German Landes Polizei, according to various Lugerforum members).
From here on, there are two versions of the story.
The first is, that Jaap took the German Sergeant as a prisoner of war. During the scuffle, the German took out his Luger, and shot Jaap through the side of his jaw. The Luger was retrieved from the German, and Jaap brought it back to South Africa. Jaap underwent surgery, and had a "plate' fixed in his palate.
The second version is that he "arrested" the German, and was wounded in a later incident during the same war.
We think that this happened in or near 1914
The Luger was inhereted by Jan Fouche van Zyl (the step son of Jaap, and brother of my grandfather Pieter van Zyl). My father (Matthys Christoffel van Zyl) then inhereted the Luger, and gave it to me about 11 years ago.
Piet

Very interesting history of the pistol and your family Piet. I have read that when Smuts telegraphed his commanders in 1914 that they were going to war one of these commanders telegraphed back with the question..."Who are we fighting the Germans or the English?". It seems that many Boers had not forgotten their last war with their new English masters.

Piet,

That is a fascinating story and one which certainly makes the pistol an heirloom for your family. For what it is worth, most of the Landespolizei was absorbed by the Schutztruppe when the war broke out, so the German sergeant probably had previously been a policeman.

Holster
 

I include a few photos of the holster of the 1911 DWM.
The leather is in such a good condition, that I sometimes wonder weather it really can be nearly a hundred years old.
The Luger and holster was (as far as I can determine) held in a dry part of our country, from the time it was brought here from Namibia which is also has a dry climate. The Luger was always kept in the hoster. I have seen that it is not advisable. I store it separately now.
I cannot find any permanent markings on it. Is there a special feature on this holster, that can maybe indicate its origin?
Piet

It looks like a fine commercial holster pressed into military service.

What a holster in fabulous condition! I don't think the holster is a commercial type because commercial holsters would usually have the buckle covered in leather. It appears to be a military type holster without any markings, but I could be wrong in my observation.

Preserve that beauty!
Albert

Piet, Have you looked Very closely on the underside of the top in the suede area? Sometimes dates & maker marks can hide there...

As Albert says..it has no indicators of a pure commercial. Maker mark & date surely make it military but the lack of such is not unheard of.

Jerry Burney

Jerry,
I took some time and went through the holster with a white light - and I had my glasses on. I cannot find even a hint of a mark - exept for the 190 written with a pen, under the top.
The thread used in the stiching has an orange colour. This can be stated as a fact, and is proven when I look inside the holster with the light.
The buckle has no rust on it, but is not as shiny as chrome or stainless steel. I suspect it was galvanized. On the one side of the buckle it is rough. (Where the metal was welded/connected to form the buckle?) Was it a cold galvanizing process? Defenitively not electroplated - too rough. The roller was formed by crimping it around the buckle and is not welded together. After looking with a magnifying glass I have confirmation of the roughness on the metal.
Piet

Piet..Well it was a shot in the dark! The orange color is quite correct. It is thought that the Germans treated the linen thread with mechurichrome to prevent destruction by microbes.

I do not believe buckles were galvanized...many excellent unused surviving late buckles prove to be painted with a high quality oil enamel paint. I suspect early buckles were simply left in plain steel but perhaps you are correct..they could possibly have had a light coating of something like galvanizing. I have never seen them with the kind of galvanizing one would find on nails...
I will have to keep an eye out for this on the many holsters that come into my shop.

Thanks for the report!

Jerry Burney

I would like to know what the markings on the frame means. By now I know I should get hold of a few books to get a lot of information, but that will be done soon. I learn a lot by browsing through the site, and learn from the experts.

I have problems to upload photo's that shows the markings, and will do later. Marks include: L R 4 5 8 * Any suggestions?
(Luger 1911 DWM sn 199f)
Piet

I forgot to mention, the markings are on the left side of the frame, and is visible when the wooden grip is removed. They are in various positions, and not grouped together.
Piet

Piet
The various letters under the grips are termed worker stamps and were used to indicate that certain work steps were accomplished.
Jan

1911 Shoots straight
 

I hesitate to submit this confession on the board.----Yessss ----I am familiar to fire a 1911 DWM.
In South Africa, the Boers and firearms are seen as one. The country was wide and wild, and food had to be kept on the table. Other great countries from way up north, had an economy to grow, and posed a threat to a steady growing new Nation.
No wonder that even today, it is not uncommon to gather the children and wife for shooting practice. The opportunity to educate and train. A farm of a family member, or friend is just fine. A good spot somewhere in a low lying area, amongst bushes and safely protected by the river banks, is just the thing.
The targets are makeshift. The cans vary in brand, but the favourites are Castle, Black Label, Coca Cola and Fanta. Each family member gets 2 shots with the Luger, 5 with the Beretta 9mm para and 10 to 15 shots with a BSA .22 rifle. Ordinary 9mm parabellum PMP, or Winchester is jus fine.
Last year a 10 year old took her Lugershots and never looked back. The comment is always the same: The Luger has got less kick-up and is more balanced - even in a 10 year old slender girl's hands. (two hands!) On twenty meters, more cans goes down with the Luger than with the 1982 Beretta - always!
Never had a jamming problem - using the original magazines and full copper jacket ammo.
I am sure that I wil now be banned from this forum - but I did it for "Volk en Vaderland"
Piet

thank you for showing and sharing my friend.
sam

Beautiful Luger. It is like traveling in the past. Luger, ammo, like in my dream! :cheers:

I second that!
This is a great topic.
Even the ammo matches the pistol with those flat noise bullets!!!
Amazing!

Douglas

That Luger is a solid historical connection to family as well as a valued treasure. This is a great thread. Thanks!

Charlie

Some new questions
 

I have been looking at proof marks and do not seem to find the exact marks, matching the 1911 DWM. (At least not in the same order)
The second F looks different to the first. Two photo's with and without chalk.
Can anyone explain it to me?

Proof marks
 

I also enclose a photo from Jan Still's forum of a 1911 DWM sn 274f (LP253) it seems to have the same difference of the second F (They were manufactured only about 75 numbers apart)
Piet

Piet,
Many of these early military Lugers will have the final inspection mark stamped over a second small crown. This is particularly true of the Crown/Z and Crown/T marks on 1908 First Issue Lugers. The photo of #274f definitely has the small crown and I am qiuite sure that is the case with your beautiful Luger.

Piet
Ron gave an excellent analysis. Your 1911 DWM, sn 199f, has Crown/E Crown/E acceptance stamps on its right receiver. Also, 1911 DWMs serial numbers 8821e, 9656e, 9772e and 274f also have the Crown/E Crown/E acceptance stamps on their right receiver. Pages 16 and 439 of the book Central Powers Pistols give more information.
Jan

So what you say is that what I see as crown F, is actually crown E?
(my photo's of sn 199f is unfortunately on the previous page (page 3) of the thread) and loose contact when you only go to the last post.
Did they stamp all three marks at the same time or was this a process stamping one by one as certain tests were completed?
Piet

I also have a question on the marking on the barrel. Normally I see 8.82 on the barrel, but 1911 sn 199f says 8.83
I know it is only .01mm difference, and I know about manufacturing tolerances. But why then mark it on the barrel?
Piet

Piet
I have attached images of the C, D, E, F. and G Reportedly they applied the acceptance stamps as the final inspection/test advanced. Görtz German Small Arms Markings, page 107-123
Jan

Any comments on the 8,83 marking on the barrel (see previous photo)
Does our reference to 9mm parabellum means the exact caliber is 9mm, or is it 8,82/3 mm?
Piet

Piet,

8,83 is the land-to-land measurement of the bore of this pistol, within acceptable tolerances for 9-mm Parabellum cartridges.

Don,
Does land to land means - not groove to groove?
Piet

Exactly!

for some reason I have to always "think" about this one.

It is obvious when I think about it;

Groove to groove is like canyons on a ocean floor; while Land to land is like a jutting of land or peninsula’s sticking up from the ocean floor



That may sound silly to some folks, but its how this mind works that I have J

Piet, looking at about ten 1910, 1911 and 1912 P08's the measurements are 8.82 with a few 8.83.

Piet, another way to look at it is that it was the bore diameter before the rifling grooves were cut.

Manufacturing Tolerances
 

Piet,

Here are two extracts fromt the military Luger Blueprints from 1913:


The standar bore diameter is 8.85mm (land to land)
The standard groove diameter is 9.1mm (groove to groove)

manufacturing tolerance is + 0.01mm
or -0.03mm

A CD of very clear images of all the blueprints and including some great bonus drawings is available for purchase in the "For Sale" forum... see the "sticky" post near the top of that page...

John,Don,George,Ed
Thanks, it means that land to land the minimum bore has to be 8,82mm and the max bore 8,86mm ? Obviously they tried to obtain the minimum bore in the manufacturing process. It means that there is a possibility to "clean" or recondition it and still stay within limits? (and also leave room for wear)
Piet

Piet, what a nice rig- wonderful!
There are no problems with the acceptance marks. I can show you half a dozen of these marks. I often have seen a smaller acceptance mark under the larger. Nice that the acceptance mark of tool and receiver are the same.
As Jerry wrote: On most holsters is the marker stamp and mostly a date. Your holster is a military one and not a commercial.
Thanks for showing the nice rig with great historical background.