I have a large number of guns to choose from for conceal carry and home defense, when you positively absolutely have to stop them depend on 7 rounds of really really nasty .357 magnum. Loaded in such a way to minimize penetration so they don't cut through two or more walls and get out of control, just enough to get in and really tear things up. For personal carry (yes I have a chl) I still use a 649 loaded with 5 rounds of 38 special hollow points in plus P. While I have quite a few auto's I still want something that always goes bang and never jambs.

http://www.moviephotoforums.com/phot...dium/357-3.jpg

And if I really wanted to use an Auto for self defense nobody is more dependable then the good old US 45 auto. I have personally put more then 1000 rounds through this, all ball 230 grain and about half US army issue ammo and I can't remember the last time it jammed. However if it even gets to see a box of anything besides ball ammo it jambs. :)

http://www.moviephotoforums.com/phot...dium/00003.jpg

Max -- I am looking for a high polished stainless steel revolver, but I cannot find one. All stainless steel gun has satin non-reflective finish. Is there a model of COLT or S&W in factory mirror stainless steel ? TIA

Colt offers several, you can get the polished stainless in the 44 Anaconda, the .357 python and if not mistaken they offered some in the King Cobra. The stainless you see in the photo though is one of my 686+'s with a 4" barrel that I polished. It really is simple to polish them, just takes a little time and elbow grease. You start with 400 wet and dry and work down to 2000 and then do a final buff with some rouge. My 649 that I carry in my pocket almost all the time is also polished and you would be amazed how durable the finish is.

http://www.moviephotoforums.com/phot...um/649-011.jpg

I was drawn to this discussion when Herb asked if anyone actually used a Luger for personal protection, so I thought it might be a chance to chime in as a new member and perhaps obtain some information about appropriate ammunition for the Luger.

I kept a loaded Luger nearby since it was given to me by my stepfather in 1982, primarily because it was all I had besides a 9mm Walther P38. Both guns were always loaded with no chambered rounds - and no children were ever around. One of the old guns stayed in the car (in a non-descript case) and the other beside the bed.

However, I finally bought a .40 caliber Desert Eagle and joined a gun range where I have been firing all three guns often - sometimes twice per week - which might raise the hair on the necks of some of the more civilized Luger collectors. ;-)

Good thing I never needed the Luger for protection because I recently discovered it was prone to jam with several types of modern ammunition. I figure the shape of the hollow points is part of the problem, and maybe leaving 7 rounds in the magazine for 30 years made the magazine springs weak. I am hearing other forum members remark that their Lugers are not always reliable, but in the 1980s I never had any jamming problems. Thus I am seeking advice on what ammo to avoid and what works well with both the Walther P38 and the Luger? It looks like I should avoid hollow points with both guns.

Since I now have the .40 cal Desert Eagle I don't need hollow points in the old guns - but would like to find a reliable round to use for occasional target practice. Once I am convinced both guns are reliable I’ll probably quit shooting the old guns because the Luger is a 1914 model with matching serial numbers – pretty clean according to the folks at the gun range. One employee at the gun range gave me the story about needing a 156 grain round to actuate the Luger reliably, but some forum members have stated that the a heavy round requirement is folklore.

Any constructive feedback would be greatly appreciated – and a source for 9mm ammo would be appreciated as it is nearly impossible to find in Oklahoma.

Doppler1992,

The best advice I can give you, I received from others right here at the Luger Forum. I believe you'll find that there's a general consensus that the Winchester 115 gr FMJ available in white boxes of 100 at Wal-Mart is the most digestible store bought 9 mm Luger ammunition available on the market today. There's also a pretty good consensus that the best, most reliable Luger magazine made today are those made by Mec-Gar.

Except for a Colt Model 1903 .32 that I had to accept in order to gain possession of three other pistols, my range bag is equipped to shoot and clean every pistol I have. That .32 ACP is an early production Type III (SN 130,000's with hard rubber grips with the "Rampant Colt"), in rather poor condition, and it's fear that keeps me from ever wanting to discharge it. If I was to have come into possession of a 1914 Luger with all matching serial numbers prior to joining the Luger Forum, I would've want to shoot it too. I probably would've continued to take it to the range for several months after joining this forum, but I'd certainly would have my doubts now after having read so many discussions in the "All P-08 Military Lugers" forum. I strongly recommend that you take digital photographs of your Luger and post them to the "All P-08 Military Lugers" forum where Ron Wood and other experts may be able to tell you what you have there for a Luger and the advisability of treating it as a shooter or as a real collectors item.

Otherwise, on behalf of myself and other perpetual newbies here at the Luger Forum, I bid you welcome.

P.S. Because a pictures worth 1,000 words, I'm posting a photo of the old Colt Hammerless .32 ACP here.

This is an old thread. I have a couple of Lugers that I would trust for self defense but the thought, if I ever had to use it, of having some cop mark evidence numbers all over a beautiful piece of history makes my skin crawl. I have several more modern pistols that could be easily replaced or refinished if needed.

Charlie

Thanks to HerbZ and Charlie for the quick reply in an old thread. I will heed HerbZ's advice and post some pictures. I have what I thought were good images until I saw other Luger photos posted in the Forum. I tried to upload a couple last night but in this reply the "Insert Image" option asks for a URL, so I need to get up to speed on how you guys insert your photos within your text body replies.

Perhaps I need to establish an album first, and then select a photo from there to insert here?

Gary -

What weight bullet are you guys shooting at the range?

Posting your photos on the Luger Forum
 

Gary,

Click on the "Go Advance" button instead of the one for "Post Quick Reply" and you'll find all the facilities anyone could want, and then some, including the standard little paper clip icon used for making an attachment. It's up there in the first row with all the other little icons, above the message box where you type.

After you click on the little paper clip icon, a window will open for uploading your photographs, or other kinds of attachments. Then click one of the "Choose File" buttons and select the first photo you want to upload. Be sure all your jpegs are smaller than 195KB. They've got five such buttons, so I guess that maybe the limit.

I hope that's enough to get you started. There are others here, especially the Moderators, that can tell you better than I can, and there's probably detailed proper instructions posted someplace on this website.

Looking forward to seeing photographs of your 1914 Luger in the "All P-08 Military Lugers" forum.

Herb

I used to shoot 115 WWB and 124gr jacketed reloads. Now with the ammo shortage I shoot hard cast 115gr lead bullets with a near max load of 231 or Unique per the Speer manual. They shoot great and leading, if any, is easily removed with strands of copper Chore Boy wound around a brass bristle brush.

Charlie

Well, now since this thread is still around, I'll mention the only Luger-for-self-defense I ever heard of. In the late 1980's I was working in a law office, and there came in an old man from the indian reservation as a witness in a criminal case. This guy was over 90 years old at the time, and he had lived on the brorder his whole life, and had apparently been a cowboy for a lot of that time.

I vaguely recall that there was some question in the case regarding a gun, and could he identify it if he saw it, and anyway this got on the subject as to whether or not he knew anything about guns. He said that he had owned a gun many years ago, and that it was a German Luger, and he was sure about that. He got it during the Mexican Revolution probably from a gun-runner, and he carried the gun in a pocket he sewed onto his leather chaps while he was out tending cattle. Why, I asked? Why, said he, for protection from the Priests.

It seems that the Mexican government since the time of Juarez (mid-late 19th century) was not always so kind to the Roman Catholic Church in Mexico, and the various contestants in the subsequent Mexican revolution continued the thought to a greater or lesser degree, often confiscating Church property for various reasons ranging from socialist reform to outright banditry.

All in all, things were rather tough for the church in the early 20th century, and so the priesthood undertook some revenue-enhancing measures, appparently including smuggling in general, and gun-running in particular. Now, gun-running was a popular sport here in Arizona at the time, and so there was some competition in the field, and this gave rise to the possibility of some less than friendly give and take as among the various gun-runners, in consequence of which gun-runners went about their business "well heeled", as it were, and apparently these Catholic priests were no exception. They were, it seems, disposed to deliver the souls of interlopers to Saint Peter directly if required, and they were known to be a bit quick on the trigger and not too awful darn careful as to most anyone they happened to meet. So, any fellow who made his living out and about around the border therefore needed to be ready to deal with these Holy lead-spitting jaspers, and hence... the Luger.

So, in response to your question: a Luger used for personal protection. Just sew a pocket on your chaps, and you're good to go. Didn't ask him about what kind of ammo he used.

H

HerbZ -

I thought I'd post a couple of photos here first, in case you are still checking in on this thread occasionally. I had to downsize my huge files and perform considerable photo editing so it'll be late Saturday before I post the pictures where you suggested at "All P-08 Military Lugers" - in hopes Ron Wood or someone will have time to look at this gun and give me some direction.

I am already convinced it's a Collector rather than a Shooter, but I sure had fun today firing about 30 rounds at the gun range before shooting the Desert Eagle .40 caliber. I have had to use Blazer 115 grain 9mm because Wal-Mart keeps selling out of the white box Winchester that you and several other members recommended. I am amazed at how much the gun's accuracy varies with different brands of ammunition.

Enjoyed the Mexican history lesson from azlaw.

Gary -

I love lugers, but the luger for self-defense and/or concealed carry spooks me for the following reasons: 1) It won't reliably feed hollow points; 2) the safety does not directly block the firing pin; 3) it's single action; 4) I know that it is irrational, but not having a visible hammer is a bit disconcerting.

Jeff

Jeff -

I have observed precisely what you mention regarding hollow points and some off-brand annunition. Mine won't chamber a Blazer 115 grain FMJ (the only ammo I can find locally) unless I manually load the eighth round in the chamber before firing, which is unsafe anywhere other than a gun range. It will empty the magazine without a hiccup as long as I manually chamber that first round. I'd like to know why - but maybe it's due to tired springs in the magazines - though the springs feel strong to my untrained touch.

Now that I have the .40 Desert Eagle I'll quit worrying about the possibilty of the Luger jamming - and retire it from target practice. Thanks to this forum I now see this is common with Lugers. I would still like to try a box of Winchester 115 gr FMJ to see if they feed properly - if I can get to a local Wal-Mart within 20 minutes of the truck arriving.

Gary -

PS - I see your point regarding the lack of a hammer.

As an account of a Luger being kept for self defense, I think azlaw's scores at the Boon & Crockett trophy level. Though I imagine if some elderly Sam Elliott type character was to show up with such a Luger rig at a Cowboy Action Shooting event here in Ohio, he'd be disqualified as unauthentic by the local SASS (Single Action Shooting Society) members.

Gary, you must be some kind of photoshop wizard to produce what appears to me to be a custom poster of your Luger rig. For better study and identification though, it might be best to post them as several separate photos. I can only guess at what might be engraved on the receiver and bolt top.

And Jeff, I hear you about how "disconcerting" a handgun is without a hammer. My CC pistol is this old S&W Model 37. The only hammerless pistols I presently have are that Colt Model 1903 and a byf 42 P-08.

Individual Photos
 

HerbZ -

I plan to post individual photos later today. I now have better lighting available. Sometimes I get carried away in photo editing programs, but I never alter the guns. When I created the original composite I was not yet aware of the 195 KB 1110 x 1100 file size limits with the forum. In the large file version, details like the witness mark are viewable when zooming in.

Several months ago I scanned some images of the Luger and other guns on my flat bed scanner with the gun directly on the glass. The resolution is outstanding - particularly in large files - but shadowing can be a problem with a direct scan. Additionally, in some of my scanned images the gun appears unnaturally blue.

I'll upload a couple here and take some conventional photos today to post under Old Lugers. I'm a bit embarrased because the gun was dirty when the scans were created, and a scanner is the least flattering imaging technique because it shows the good and the bad.

Thanks for the feedback.

Gary -

Gary,

Well I never...but then I guess now that I think about it, a scanner is a kind of digital camera mounted under glass and...and I'm remember back when office copiers were pretty new technology and people use to sit their butts (and all sorts of other body parts) on copiers and make pictures of themselves...

Looks like the "DWM" of Deutsche Waffen und Munition Fabrik is on the bolt alright.

Scanning Guns and Critters
 

Herb

I might be risking admonishment for getting off-subject, but I used to scan live critters because the resolution is so much better than digital photography (or MY digital photograpy). The trick is getting the little rascals to hold still during a scan.

Of couse I used a Ziploc when scanning poisonous spiders, for a margin of safety. I have a bunch of critter scans, including a black widow (spider) and a scorpion, but I won't wear out my forum welcome by posting these weird scans.

The point, if any, is that one's imagination is the limit to high resolution imaging with a scanner.

Gary -

Ah, but I beg to differ, sir. Wild Bunch has officially arrived:

http://www.sassnet.com/WB-Main-001A.php

At our club, all full-sized period "foreign" autos are permitted. I have been running a Luger for about a year now, and just got a Broomhandle. Need to work out a Mexican Revolutionary costume, maybe with crossed bandoleros. Viva la Revolucion!

H

The Wild Bunch
 

H

I'm not much of a fan of SA revolvers. I've only owned one thumb buster, a .357 Ruger Blackhawk which I traded within months of purchasing. And not really familiar with the SASS. I stand corrected. But I certainly remember the film the Wild Bunch and the prominent part that the Colt Model 1911 played in it.

On the other hand I'm very much a fan of the Colt Model 1911. I passed on the opportunity to purchase a new Colt Model 1911 WW I Replica several years back, which I guess would qualify for the SASS and look real authentic too. But then it's not a totally authentic replica, being a Series 70 on the inside...but I digress.

The Colt Custom Shop has been offering a "1911", which appears to be just that externally at least, but with Series 70 innards. (http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/1911WWI.asp).

I have seen one, and you sort of do a double take. First you see a 1911 in impossibly good condition, but then you notice a strange texture to the finish that isn't what you have ever seen on an original from the period. This is because all of Colt's horses and all of Colt's men can't (or won't) exactly duplicate the fine fit and finish of those old guns.

Most Wild Bunch shooters seem to be going with the inexpensive "plain Jane" 1911A1s that are coming from overseas right now. All are generally acceptable.

H

The educated concensus is that the P08 should never be the first choice for self defense, much less concealed carry.

However, I obtained permission from my instructors to use my old .30 Luger with a six inch barrel for the firing range portion of my concealed carry permit class. Hip holsters were required.

Target distance using the FBI "Q" target was only 21 feet since most gunfights will take place within this short distance. As we were firing, we were yelling out loud "Drop the knife! Drop the knife!" before we fired two shots.

You can imagine the Luger generated a lot of interest. And I am pleased to report that in my group of six qualifiers, it did produce the tightest group. As we all know, it doesn't make much difference what cartridge you use if you can not hit exactly what you are aiming at under stressful conditions.

Mauser720 - Ron

Nice shooting!

The worst gun I've ever had was a (new) 1911 Springfield Champion, .45ACP
I had all the time problems with the extraction of the shell after firing, it stucks most often 50% in the chamber.This happend with 5-6 several brands of ammo.
This still happens even after about 1200 rounds shot with this gun.

suum cuique -

Maybe someone on The Forum can offer you some suggestions on how to fix this problem.

Mauser720 - Ron

New extractor. There are two less expensive alternative suggested, over to the right on the same page.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9...UFF__EXTRACTOR

Hi Herb,
thanks for your responce.
This was my first thought, too. But the extraction problems occured from the first day on. (I bought this gun as a brand new gun). Back then, the gun dealer ment, a 1911 needs alot of oil/grease to operate flawless. THen I lubed and oiled this gun very well.
Later, I showed this gun to a guy at the gun shop to get another suggestion, and he said, the extractor seems OK. If I extract a shell manually, then it works always without a problem, but when I shoot, then it doesn't work. I did not expect to have a bad extractor on a brand new gun.
In 1989, I bought my first Springfield. A regular 1911 A1-style gun in .45 ACP. THis gun fired always without any problems. A very, very reliable gun.
Andy

New guns aren't always flawless. I bought a Colt Python in 1966 and one of the chambers was oversize...it split the brass every time I fired it. Colt replaced the cylinder free of charge of course, but errors do happen. After it was fixed, that was one sweet shooting side arm.

Contrary to what your dealer suggested, 1911 type pistols do not need a lot of oil/grease to operate acceptably.
One possibility is an overtight chamber, or one with burrs or ridges in it.
Take a close look at this area. Another is where the barrel ramp fits into the lower frame. Sometimes a poor fit here allows a gun to be hand cycled satisfactorily but will hang up when fired.

I would suggest, with all respect to your ability's, seek a professional, I mean a real top notch gun smith to do the work, everyone thinks a 1911 in easy and simple, but it can be messed up in a heart beat....grease only on rails, light oil for rust prevention the rest.....

To check for chamber problems, do the "drop test". Remove the 1911 barrel and hold it chamber side up. Then drop a brand new factory cartridge into the chamber; it should go all the way down and even with the barrel hood lip. If it doesn't then you have a chamber problem. If it does then the next suspect is the extractor. If the extractor has too much tension then it will interfere with loading the cartridge; too little tension can cause problems with extracting the spent case. The 1911 forums have stickys on do-it-yourself extractor tensioning. If you don't have confidence in diong this a good gunsmith should be able to fix the problem in just a few minutes while you wait.

Charlie

Thanks
 

to you all for your advise. I really appreciate it.
Well, the gun dealer who recommended to use alot of grease/oil on my 1911 was the same guy which recommended to use +p+ ammo in my Luger when I bought the gun.
Andy

Andy,

The 1911A1, in standard military configuration, is my all-time favorite pistol. If properly set up and maintained, they are extremely reliable.

BUT...

...once all the big wars passed, and as soon as every new 1911 built was no longer examined by military acceptance personnel, the problems began. And the civilian manufacturers, no longer working under government contract, began turning out garbage which is out of specs and, in many cases, cannot possibly work at all. You'd be surprised at which manufacturers are doing this.

I always have five to seven of these (which work ;)). In the '60s and '70s, I built a few for close professional friends in the Washington area, and some of them saw serious use. So they had to be right. But doing that was easy, because there was still a good supply of military surplus parts which had gone through the acceptance process and were within specifications. That is the key. Good frames and slides were available and still are. But for everything to go together and work, each component has to be in spec. That is just about no longer possible. So I stopped building .45s.

There is no hit-and-miss way you can be sure you will have fixed your pistol yourself, so you can depend upon it, unless you are thoroughly familiar with the design and have worked on a bunch of them.

You can use your pistol as part of the learning process, and follow some of the trouble shooting advice here. But if you want it to work right now, for serious, Policeluger's advice on seeking professional assistance is the only safe solution.

Once your 1911 is debugged, it will give long and reliable service, as long as it gets reasonably good care and good ammunition.

Oh yes, if you want to buy a rather good and inexpensive 1911 which is close to the WW-II milspec plain Jane pistol, which is going to work out-of-the-box, and which will have good parts interchangeability, take a look at the ones made in the Philippines by Armscorp. Those people have intimate, lifelong familiarity with the 1911, carbine, M-1, Thompson, and everything our guys carried over there during the war. They love it, know it, and build it right. I don't want to sound like a commercial, but it's the truth...at least in my experience. So then what happened? Dealers started boosting the retail prices on their Armscorp pistols. I believe Springfield also sells some of these under their own name.

Phil,
I will follow your and PoliceLuger's advise to bring the 1911 Springfield Champion to a gunsmith.
(This Springfield Champion was brand new and produced in Brazil).
In 1988 or 1989 I bought a regular Springfield 1911 in .45ACP, this 1911 never caused any problem.
But back to the thread:
I guess, a good Luger-shooter is also a gun for self defense, maybe not the best, but not the worst, either.
Anyway, the Luger was made for self defense. That's what a sidearm is made for. Or am I wrong?
Thanks,
Andy

A Luger will do nicely if there is no other firearm available.
Remember, the first rule of gunfighting is bring a gun!!

Interesting thread. I agree especially with davidk. The cops love to hold on to things. I had a bad car accident a few years back. Took forever to get my HK P7 back from them. It's legal to carry in your car here. As for home defense, I bought a plain jane, SS Kimber for right around what you'd spend for a Luger 'shooter'. An amazing piece! Accurate as hell right outta the box. I did splurg a few years later and put the Crimson Trace laser sights on it. But it is still only the back up to the Mossburg 590 12ga.

FN

Andy,

If you have a Brazilian 1911 from Springfield, it's likely to be a good one and worth the time and attention of a gunsmith; but not just any gunsmith. It has to be somebody thoroughly familiar with the design. Many gunsmiths are.

FNorm,

You have a P7. Truly wonderful, safe, reliable gun; virtually foolproof. I have a P7M13 which I bought new in 1986, but don't shoot much due to the need for jacketed bullets only. I shoot mostly my lead bullet reloads. And the gun is a bit bulky for daily carry, although I designed and made a good holster to carry on the rear of the belt.

And I had just about run out of the bullets I swage for it only, 125 grain truncated cone jacketed soft point hollow point. So the last two days, I made a batch of 420. Then I happily discovered that they feed just fine in my S/42 Luger, also. I'll have to run some through the chrono, when time permits.

So this is a new dilemma. Looks like my Luger might handle my favorite serious bullet, but I can't bring myself to trust any Luger, even one that seems to run reliably, for regular carry when there are other options. Guess I'm getting neurotic, when I have so many choices. :roflmao:

Phil,

I think I got mine about the same time. The M8 though. Good 'panic gun'. Grab, squeeze any two things in any order and blam! You ever check out the bore though? Strange rifling, not really lands and grooves, but a twist.

FN

Norm,

Yes, they have been doing the polygonal rifling thing for a long time. And you will also notice that the front part of the chamber on your M8 has all the little grooves, to bleed gas back between the case and chamber wall, to aid extraction, as though a blowback 9mm needs it. :roflmao: H&K loves those grooves; puts 'em in all their guns. It distinctively marks any empty case fired in an H&K.

With the P7, squeeze everything, in any order or at the same time, and it goes "bang". Let go of everything, in any order or at the same time, or then drop it, or drive over it, or throw it at somebody, and it is instantly and totally safe; can't go "bang".

Quite a gun. In almost 25 years of owning my P7M13, I have never had a failure to feed, fire, eject, or anything else. And it is an accurate gun, although the spongy trigger leaves something to be desired. I can live with that, for all the other benefits. You can trust that gun totally. Tthat is true of very few firearms. And loading magazines is kind of a pain.