LugerForum Discussion Forums - Grips are part of the pistol, methinks

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- All P-08 Military Lugers (https://forum.lugerforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=122)

- - Grips are part of the pistol, methinks (https://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=4218)

Mike, I agree with John. If your interest is WWII Lugers, then Still's Third Reich Lugers is about as good as they come. I also like John Walter's The Luger Book for all varieties of Luger.

Steve, not all Military Mauser Grips are Waffenamt Marked. Some Armorers Grips and the later E/655 and E/135 are WaA Marked, but not all. If they are numbered, they should have the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the inside surface.

Michael--

Mind if I ask what numbers are on the back of your current grips? Thanks.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John Sabato:
Jan C. Still "Third Reich Lugers" should be your first purchase considering your focus.<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Frank:
Mike, I agree with John. If your interest is WWII Lugers, then Still's Third Reich Lugers is about as good as they come. I also like John Walter's The Luger Book for all varieties of Luger.<hr /></blockquote>John & Frank,
Thanks for your recommendations.
I'll check them out.
Mike <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sharpsman2002:
Michael--

Mind if I ask what numbers are on the back of your current grips? Thanks.<hr /></blockquote>The right side grip is numbered 24 and the left is numbered 29.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
I...have not seen (or remember) manuals that require marking on DWM or Mauser grips?<hr /></blockquote>The 1910 Instructions require inspector marking and serial numbering both grip panels.

--Dwight

Dwight -

I recently posted an inquiry about late WW-I Lugers with grip panels which were clearly authentic, but which had no serial numbers, some having a single upper-case letter. For example, I have a pristine (and honest) 1918 which has authentic grips which only have an upper-case "P" on the inside.

The response from Jan Still (and a few others) was that not all of the late WW-I Lugers had the grip panels numbered.

I wonder if anyone else has any information on the possiblilty that DWM got careless about this practice near the end of the Great War.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by policeluger:
...and Ed I have always wondered if there where all these armouers out there running around replacing parts? Has anyone ever identified at least say a large tool/parts box that an armour would have? I really think too much has been places on "armourer's" than was documented. And how heavly was the gun used prior too needing a part replaced. While I seldom if ever shoot Lugers, and nothing from my collection/investment, there are many here that shoot thier Lugers, are thay replaceing parts as often as we are incountering "armour" replaced parts in the collecting field...how much was a Luger fired during even 4/5 year of war...long way around, I guess what I want too say is do you feel that the "armourer's replaced" is a way of hidding, or getting around a Luger that is not 100%. thanks<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
I have seen pictures of a tool kit, it appeared to have just about everything except for a frame and barrel! Seriously it contained a large amount of parts...So, I bet that many parts are from parted out guns, from the thousands of parts left over and hauled away after each war and from repro parts. Plus the armorer kits that would have been in many hundreds of units.<hr /></blockquote>Howard,

Check this link for the Broken Parts Survey, it should answer some of your questions about parts breakage in modern use. It is useful to remember that these guns are 60-100 years old, at the far end of their use cycle, and may not accurately reflect conditions when the guns were new.

Armorer's replacement parts is a topic which has been a back-of-my-mind interest for a while. There doesn't seem to be a lot of common understanding of where replacement parts came from (who made them), field armorer operations, how often and what parts were replaced, etc. I've been asking after this topic for a while, anyone who can provide factual (documented) information has my thanks.

Regarding Armorer's Kit contents, Joachim GÃ?Â¶rtz, in the February 1996 "Auto Mag", reported the army list of parts available to armorers for field repair, and noted that barrels and receivers were not included, that barrel and receiver repair was an armory-level function (no mention of the frame, so presumably that was at least available). (Although this was a WWII-era edict, I have observed that Weimar and Wehrmacht practices regarding the P-08 tend to follow those established by the Imperial German Army, so I am confident that this practice was current in WWI.)

S/42-marked WWII parts are accepted to be armorer replacements. I have an Erfurt-manufactured magazine with two inspector's stamps and no serial# which was represented to me as an armorer's replacement; grips with inspector stamps and no numbers are also reportedly armorer replacements. These at least make sense to me.

But I also think that ignorance (or lack of information--to say it nicely) and wishful thinking cause owners to invoke this to justify a non-matching gun.

The logic would be, I guess, that field armorer work (or armory depot work) is at least "authentic", whereas parts replacement after the gun passed from Army (or Police) jurisdiction simply reduces a Luger's condition. I must admit to some agreement with this.

--Dwight

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
I...have not seen (or remember) manuals that require marking on DWM or Mauser grips?<hr /></blockquote>The 1910 Instructions require inspector marking and serial numbering both grip panels.

--Dwight<hr /></blockquote>Dwight, I was under the impression that this was for ERFURT only (from the 1910 manual), and thus may or may not pertain to DWM or Mauser. I do not know this exact citation and will gladly look it up. But I do know that the manuls also state that items will be marked in many areas. Examples from manuals (possibly not the 1910 manual) are that grip screws will be stamped, however you see Erfurt screws stamped, but do you see DWM or Mauser? Erfurt followed to the letter of the manual, but DWM did not.

I was also told that it has been observed that about 4 out of 5 guns was stamped with the serial numbers on the grips and not EVERY gun. Since this was from a well-known collector I figured this was how many collectors also believed, so was a bit taken a-back when the majority on this forum stated otherwise?

Ed

correction to what I wrote above. But grips bear seriual numbers on about 4 of 5 original DWM or Mauser military Lugers (one of five does not bear serial numbers) It varies by date.

Dwight,

A couple of years ago, a collector in the Philadelphia area auctioned on eBay a wooden crate (chest) that was described as an armorers spare parts kit. It was compartmented and contained spare parts for both k98 Mausers and P.08 pistols... the chest was complete with many parts and IIRC included a couple of magazines that were marked S42... I have a photo of this box somewhere, but can't guarantee that I will be able to locate it, but if I do, I will post it for you.

OK, so s/42 are replacement parts, I guess it is just that I feel that a lot of re-numbered/patched together guns are being passed off as "armour work". Try too make something look right that isn't. I'm still out on this, and yes and thanks Dwight on the survey, I was part of it. On grip SN'ed, why would every fifth be numbered and rest un-munbered, does not make sense too me?? I have a few non police Lugers Imperial era, all have numbered grips, I would think anything less is not 100% matching/correct...then again it is what we want too buy, shoot, what ever, its just I collect with the end result being something too sale with out making excuses. I guess I am really into investing and not shooting...I once had a buyer at the Great Western show about 30 years ago walk away form one of my Lugers because it did not have a matching clip, it left an impression on me too seek out only matching guns for collecting/investing...not sure if I am right or wrong but I do love the Lugers.

Sorry, the every fifth was an approx that was more of a feeling. My point is that I have been told that not all grips are categorically marked.

If I may quote part of what Jan Still wrote on his forum (further information on his forum):

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Erfurt grips are always serial numbered.
Imperial DWM grips are not always numbered.
Mauser grips are not always numbered.
Simson grips appear to be all or almost all numbered.<hr /></blockquote>So, since I was relying on information from talking to several collectors last spring, this was my assumption on grip markings:
Some are marked, but many were not marked to start with.

But I could see that many collectors on the forum do not necessarily agree with this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Ed

Hello Mike

You might want to look at these grips...

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=13698217

(As usual...I have no connection with the sale of these luger items...)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

I have a Luger...S/42 1938 F/S on GA(Shameless plug)....one of the grips has S/42 stamped on it as per photo....1st grip I have seen like that....Peter.. http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mvc733f.jpg

Ed,

As I understand it, the 1910 Instructions appertain to -all- P-08 procured by the army. Erfurt, being a Government armory, followed the instructions to the letter. Simpson followed suit. DWM (and Mauser) did not bother with inspector's marks. Educated speculation has it that, as private companies, they did not feel bound by this requirement. Why, and why the Army inspectors permitted this deviation, is unknown.

DWM (and Mauser) did, it seems, hew closely to the serial# requirements. One could wonder if this was because of the functionality aspects of matching parts.

Howard,

Your determination to invest only in detail matching guns--grips (and magazines??) included--is certainly laudable. I agree that, until armorer/armory practices are clearly understood, a Luger advertised as an "armory rework" is suspicious.

That being said, how do you feel about Vono, Frankenschloss, or HZa marked Lugers?

--Dwight

All are period correct rework proofs and as best I recall all are lacking a sear safety, well perhaps a HZa proof may show up on a correct Wiemar police gun. I have no problem with correct period reworked Lugers, hence Wiemar police guns are my main interest...but I do feel uneasy about the words "armour" field/depot what ever, rework, being used without solid providance too sell a gun. I feel that it is a cover up, too sell to the unsuspecting.

Hang me for a hereticÃ¢?Â¦but I do not have a big problem with non-matched grips, magazines or firing pins. These parts were most often subject to the rigors of use and were replaced, either by users of the period or the generations of owners subsequent to that time.

Given a Luger in excellent original condition but lacking one or all three of these components with the correct serial number, I am not loathe to honor it for what it is, a testament to time.

I do not condone misrepresentation of a Luger as Ã¢??all originalÃ¢?Â if it is not. Nor do I ascribe to the fantasy of Ã¢??armorerÃ¢??s replacementÃ¢?Â, although this is a valid consideration in some cases and should be judged on an individual basis. However, to claim either of these conditions falsely is fraud, and shame upon those who would do so.

I am a collector as opposed to an investor. I do not find fault with those individuals who view their Lugers much as a coin collector would cherish the unblemished example, and expect a return on their investment to reflect their shrewd acquisition of Ã¢??perfectÃ¢?Â specimens. That is the nature of investments. I would hope that someday the monetary return from my collection would provide a graceful descent into my declining years, but that is not my primary purpose.

I rejoice in the acquisition of a pristine piece and try to adhere to a standard of originality. Otherwise, I would just be an accumulator and not a collector. However, I also am gratified in finding a suitable example for my collection that fills a historical niche, and I am not deterred by less than perfection in what I find. I shudder to think of the opportunities I would have missed to own, and pass on to future generations, representative examples of historic variations that constitute the lineage of Luger development if I had rejected a Luger for mismatched grips, magazines or firing pins. These parts are not important in the grand scheme of things.

To those of us with limited means, I would say do the best you can, buy the best you can and do the research to know what you are buying. We canÃ¢??t compete with the big boys, but we can enjoy the hunt and the scholarship involved. Be diligent but donÃ¢??t be afraid to make a mistake. You will live through it and be the wiser for it.

That is my credo, and I offer it for what it is worth. Good collecting to all and God bless.

Ron, thank you very much for the perspective and the reality check.

--Dwight

I agree with Ron and appreciate his discussion. I feel the same way about Lugers as well as other guns that I personally find equally neat (Colt single actions, original military 1911s, Garands, etc.). I only want good clean mechanically perfect examples, no junk for me. Finally, mine gotta shoot or out they go (I don't want paperweights).