LugerForum Discussion Forums

LugerForum Discussion Forums (https://forum.lugerforum.com/index.php)
-   All P-08 Military Lugers (https://forum.lugerforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=122)
-   -   K date rig, all matching (https://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=28472)

CJS57 06-16-2012 06:53 AM

How does one fake an entire Luger? Do you start with an unmarked "sneak" and then make all the many stamps to remark it? Or do you hand cut the markings? What about the finishing? Can anyone refinish a Luger ( blue, halos, straw, tin plating, and aluminum) such that our experts here cannot tell? If it can fool the experts, how would anyone ever know? I am machine shop trained and have examined 500,000 and sold 10,000 collector guns over the last 50 years so I am not a beginner. Just curious how faking an entire gun is done?

klaus 3338 06-16-2012 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balder (Post 215039)
Gentlemen,

I have no strong opinions about the authenticity of the guns in question. However, as a Norwegian collector of Lugers I am curious about the Norwegian tools which I never have heard about. Is the production of these a documented fact?

Some years ago we had a discussion on this forum about Norwegian-made Luger parts. I contacted the curator at the museum of Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk (state arsenal) who also worked at the factory for many years after the war. According to him, the only Luger parts made there were barrels. I have seen several other parts with the Kongsberg logo, but these were German-made spare parts.

Now, whether he would consider the tool as a "part" I do not know, but I am pretty sure he would have mentioned it anyway if in fact they did make them. Sadly, he is not around anymore.

Balder

Please ask Jan Erik Martinsen from the Military Museum in Oslo about the tools. I remember that I saw in Oslo hundreds of tools in the 1980 and 1990 years. Many were from the Third Reich times and other made by Kongsberg after the war for the Lugers which were used by the Norwegian Army after the war.

Norme 06-16-2012 12:17 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by CJS57 (Post 215040)
How does one fake an entire Luger? Do you start with an unmarked "sneak" and then make all the many stamps to remark it? Or do you hand cut the markings? What about the finishing? Can anyone refinish a Luger ( blue, halos, straw, tin plating, and aluminum) such that our experts here cannot tell? If it can fool the experts, how would anyone ever know? I am machine shop trained and have examined 500,000 and sold 10,000 collector guns over the last 50 years so I am not a beginner. Just curious how faking an entire gun is done?

Hi Chris, My primary area of interest is Imperial Navy Lugers and, trust me, anything from the humble loading tool to complete guns can be faked, as I know from bitter personal experience (see photos). A modern machine shop, as you must know, can reproduce anything made 70 to 100 years ago if there is sufficient financial incentive.
In the case of this K date, it was probably fabricated from a later Mauser, like a G date, in need of refinishing. After the old markings were removed and K date markings applied, it was refinished. We already know that the faker had access to period dies from the tool. A lot of work, I know, but the upside potential is enormous. All K dates, without exception, have sharp edged barrel bands. It's a shame that, when asked to post clearer photos, Myky had a hissy fit and left.
Regards, Norm

Jan C Still 06-16-2012 01:02 PM

Norme
Well stated:
"Hi Chris, My primary area of interest is Imperial Navy Lugers and, trust me, anything from the humble loading tool to complete guns can be faked, as I know from bitter personal experience (see photos). A modern machine shop, as you must know, can reproduce anything made 70 to 100 years ago if there is sufficient financial incentive.
In the case of this K date, it was probably fabricated from a later Mauser, like a G date, in need of refinishing. After the old markings were removed and K date markings applied, it was refinished. We already know that the faker had access to period dies from the tool. A lot of work, I know, but the upside potential is enormous."
Jan

andwaahs 06-16-2012 01:11 PM

If I am right the first alarm bell rang with the tool being Norwegian, why on earth would the faker, who seems to know exactly how to make a convincing copy, allow themself to be caught out by the machine marks on a tool?
surely they would attempt to "buff" them out or something?

Please dont flame me for this observation, just hard to work out in my newby mind.

I feel sympathy for Myky as the horror of realising you have been tricked must be gut wrenching and difficult to swallow, lets hope he comes back to the post when he is ready

Leon DeSpain 06-16-2012 01:15 PM

Hi,

I'm not attempting to comment on the subject gun but some amazing work has been done faking Lugers. A very long time collector bought the pistol in the following link and was convinced it was right. I borrowed it and took the pictures in the link. Let me know what you think.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page0137.html

Regards, Leon

andwaahs 06-16-2012 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon DeSpain (Post 215053)
Hi,

I'm not attempting to comment on the subject gun but some amazing work has been done faking Lugers. A very long time collector bought the pistol in the following link and was convinced it was right. I borrowed it and took the pictures in the link. Let me know what you think.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page0137.html

Regards, Leon

Well there are indeed some differences there, subtle but there non the less..

sheepherder 06-16-2012 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme (Post 215049)
In the case of this K date, it was probably fabricated from a later Mauser, like a G date, in need of refinishing. After the old markings were removed and K date markings applied, it was refinished. We already know that the faker had access to period dies from the tool.

So the 'mechanic' or a partner would go to a large gun show, stake out a table showing Lugers, wait for a 'mark' asking enough questions to show he is interested and has $$$, and then swoop down on him and offer him a deal he can't resist on the K Date/Totenkopf/Russian Contract Luger...Oh, and I forgot the 'story' (every Luger has a story)..."Brought back by my grandfather, taken from the battlefield, never registered, stored 60+ years unfired (that's why the barrel is so nice & shiny), and because I've lost my job and want to keep my house I'm selling it at a loss...today only..." :(

I'm sorry to admit that I fell for a similar scam over on ARFCOM back in '04... :banghead:

George Anderson 06-16-2012 05:38 PM

Sometimes they just float them on a collectors' website like this one.

alanint 06-16-2012 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon DeSpain (Post 215053)
Hi,

I'm not attempting to comment on the subject gun but some amazing work has been done faking Lugers. A very long time collector bought the pistol in the following link and was convinced it was right. I borrowed it and took the pictures in the link. Let me know what you think.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page0137.html

Regards, Leon

All those proofs appear to have been engraved, rather than stamped.

Leon DeSpain 06-16-2012 06:29 PM

Yes, there is more to the story also that I will relate after more have examined it.

Regards, Leon

A.Mifsin 06-17-2012 02:46 AM

"All K dates, without exception, have sharp edged barrel bands. "

Any chance of having a closeup photo of the above please?
Thanks.
Alf

Jan C Still 06-17-2012 03:27 AM

Leon
In addition to the things previously mentiomed,
the 8.82 on the barrel should have a comma 8,82 instead of a period.
Jan

Jan C Still 06-17-2012 03:38 AM

Here is a link to a detailed discussion of the K Date:
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...r-Data-Request

Jan

Leon DeSpain 06-17-2012 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan C Still (Post 215105)
Leon
In addition to the things previously mentiomed,
the 8.82 on the barrel should have a comma 8,82 instead of a period.
Jan

Hi Jan,

Yes, I have some text comments under some of the pictures. I did mention that. It's strange that with all the work that was put into that pistol, they would miss using a comma.

In particular, notice the style of the E/655 that is the barrel inspection stamp at 10 o'clock just in front of the receiver.

Regards, Leon

Frank Scarcello 06-17-2012 09:33 PM

K frame
 
Have a k frame also calf give me a call

sheepherder 08-12-2012 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Scarcello (Post 215184)
Have a k frame also calf give me a call

I missed this when it was posted - Frank, what is a 'calf'??? :confused:

pitsword 08-12-2012 07:30 PM

Richie, a calf is either a young heifer or a young bull. Remember that a young bull poops and as it grows it makes bulls**t. Maybe that is what Frank is telling you.

kpf 01-09-2013 11:34 AM

My Norw tool
 
Here is my Norwegian tool

http://imageshack.us/a/img138/3585/080113004.jpg

Regards

Kai

Norway

NoncomRetired 01-09-2013 02:17 PM

This thread has been very "edjamakational", proving, you're never too old to learn something new.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:47 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2025, Lugerforum.com