Jerry,

I believe that the pistols that used the spring clip type of lanyard, simply had an attaching ring on the pistol. I remember seeing an image of a Portuguese luger in one of the US surplus gun sellers ads, showing a lanyard ring in situ. Have to dig up that one :)

The Dutch navy lanyards, as discussed earlier, also have the spring clip design.

Jerry,

Received the lanyard today and I have to tell you and everybody it is much more a work of art than a reproduction lanyard.

Thank you so very much,
Wayne

Got my lanyard this morning.

WOW!!

I had assumed it would be accurate but it also even looks vintage. Very impressed with overall look and quality.

Thank you Jerry.

Steve S.

Wayne, Steve..Many thanks, glad you like them. Every leather and brass part on them is hand made by me from the half dozen originals in my collection .

I only make a few a year as it takes me 10 days or better to make a dozen of them.

I appreciate your patronage.


Jerry Burney

Jerry, I wonder if this is the difference in either collecting or what worked best? What I mean is that the US army lanyard has a "clip" on the end, and as a soldier, you don't care if you mar the finish; not really :o


ed

The 1911A1 main spring housing has a lanyard loop that was made for a "Clip " style lanyard attachment. The P08 seems to have been designed for " Strap" from the onset. A man would use his pistol as a hammer if he needed to, it was just a G.I. tool. Combat pistols need a lanyard attachment. Since I currently work for a man that restores Mercedes Benz 300 SLs from then early 50's, I understand one reason why the Germans lost WW II. Their approach to a design idea is often over engineered (artistically indeed) and needs many special or modified tools to do even simple maintenance.

Would I be sidetracking this thread too much if I asked exactly how a lanyard is worn and used? Does it steady the weapon like a shooting sling? Or does it simply prevent one from dropping the gun during use?

Joe, A good point I hadn't thought of.

Jim, The two types of lanyard I think there were was the Cavalry which was longer..worn over the opposite shoulder from the pistol was primarily used to prevent loss of the pistol while on a galloping horse. Sam on the German motorcycle.
The other was the shorter Stosstrup type..worn around the neck hanging about waist height. These were employed by front line Stosstrup troops who went on raiding parties. Again, I believe used to prevent loss at night in the muddy trenches.
I have used the lanyards I make for steadying the pistol while on the range but I don't believe this was any military advantage. The Luger in the Military setting was a defensive weapon and not a target pistol per-se.
The real advantage to the lanyard is in prevention of loss. Loss would be very inconvenient to either the Cavalryman or a front line raider who needs both hands for other tasks from time to time!

Jerry Burney

Lieber Jerry,
die Hirschbrunft ist nun leider vorbei- das gibt mir aber auch Zeit, hinsichtlich der Fangriemen nochmals kurz Stellung zu nehmen.

Nun kann ich mich nicht mit verdienten Leuten wie Görtz, Kornmayer oder Reckendorf auf eine Stufe stellen und deswegen hier auch nur als Bestandsaufnahme die wenigen Hinweise in deutschen Archivalien hinsichtlich der unterschiedlichen Fangriemen zusammenfassen.
Vorab aber noch eine kurze Stellungnahme zu der von Ihnen vertretenen Meinung.
Ich brauche hier nicht zu beweisen, was ich weiß. Ob die Fangriemen mit Karabinerhaken wegen der Möglichkeit des Rostens von mangelhafter Qualität sind, mag nun jeder für sich selbst entscheiden. Ihre Entscheidung, aus diesem Grund die portugiesischen Fangriemen mit der Lederlasche zu fertigen mag unter dem Aspekt des Verkratzens der Fangriemenvorrichtung an Sammlerwaffen auch durchaus eine Betrachtung wert sein, unter Berücksichtigung des ernsthaften Sammlers verliert diese Frage aber an Bedeutung. Hier muss sich aber jeder Sammler ein eigenes Bild machen. Ich vertrete hier, wie auch seinerzeit Joachim Görtz in seinem Buch die Pistole 08 die von ihm auf Seite 106/ 107 vertretene Feststellung: Die Tasche und der Pistolengurt (Fangriemen) entstammen allerdings portugiesischer Fertigung.
Leider setzten sich einmal falsch veröffentliche Meldungen über Jahre hinweg durch: Ritzmann Griffschalen bei Krieghoff P08 statt Römmler, oder S.D…. interpretiert als Sicherheitsdienst statt Schutzpolizei Düsseldorf usw..

Nun zu den zugegebenermaßen dürftigen Archivalien hinsichtlich der Fangriemen.
Mit der Veröffentlichung in den Allgemeinen Heeresmitteilungen vom 22. November 1935 gibt der Oberbefehlshaber des Heeres die Ausstattung des Pistolengurtes (Fangriemen) für die mit der P08 ausgestatteten Berittenen bekannt. Neben der Begründung und Handhabung desselben wird ausdrücklich erwähnt, dass der KARABINERHAKEN in jedem Fall an der Pistole zu belassen ist, um den Verlust des Fangriemens auszuschließen.

Mit einer weiteren Veröffentlichung am 7. Mai 1940 wird neben der Pistole 38 der Pistolengurt eingeführt und beschrieben. Auch hier: der KARABINERHAKEN wird durch eine Schnalle ersetzt, die gegenüber dem KARABINERHAKEN größere Sicherheit gegen das Verlieren der Pistole bietet.

Deutlicher kann ich es nicht machen- alles andere wäre Verdrehung der Tatsachen.

Ich würde mich freuen, wenn ich etwas zur Klärung der Fangriemenfrage beitragen konnte.

Herzliche Sammlergrüsse Klaus

Klaus, Many thanks for your thoughts on the lanyard for the P08 pistol.

There is so little photographic evidence of the use of the lanyard after WW1... documents concerning it from as late as 1940 are somewhat moot in my opinion. I have never observed an original photo from the WW2 era where a German Soldier is using any kind of issue P08 lanyard.

If anyone out there has any photo's of German Soldiers with lanyards of any kind for any pistol I would dearly love to see them!

I do have many photo's of Soldiers using a P08 lanyard from the WW1 era.

I also have an archive of other nationalities using lanyards..Most if not all are in the WW1 era or at least between wars.

In WW2 the popularity of the pistol lanyard seems to have plumeted. Perhaps it was because of the demise of the Cavalry.
Polish and Dutch show some use but very few actual photo's exist from what I can tell. With all the photo's taken of Soldiers it would seem that it was certainly not common to use the P08 or the P-38 lanyard after WW1.

At any rate..a fascinating subject for me and I appreciate your input.

Jerry Burney

Jerry,

are you still looking for pictures of a lanyard for the 42 byf Portuguese Luger ?

I think I have one that is authentic

Bill

Well,

It seems that so far 3 different variations of Portuguese lanyards have been identified.

The first type is the one that Jerry has faithfully reproduced (short leather tab and 2 leather sliders).

The second type has a slightly longer leather tab and uses leather sliders that are made from punched through flat pieces of leather. These pieces cannot be removed from the sling and easily break. Many have probably been replaced in Portugal by the tan colored leather sliders of the first type.

The third type has the bayonet hook connector, which is fastend to the pistol by using a separate lanyard ring: the ring is attached to the pistol's lanyard loop and the lanyard's bayonet hook attaches to the ring.

Tan leather usually seems to indicate a repair. I have studied quite a lot of Portuguese holsters and have a couple of Portuguese lanyards here. The tan color of the sliders matches that of period repairs on one of the holsters perfectly. It also shows that a repaired, beat up old holster can sometimes be of more use than a minty one :)

Photos from top to bottom:

Type 2 of the Portuguese Lanyard:
-Longer tab.
-Tigthly twisted loop ends.
-Flat leather tabs.

Close-up of the Type 2 tab.

Close-up of a Type 1 lanyard from Michael Reese's 1977 Guns & Ammo article.

Scan of Michael Reese's 1977 Guns & Ammo article.

Repaired M942 Portuguese Holster. Note the lighter repairs (loop, holster toe).

Frankionia Ad from the 1990s: Offering the M942 pistol with holster, magazine, tool, cleaning rod and lanyard loop (loop mentioned but not shown). Note the holster.

Scan of a Type 1 Portuguese lanyard loop.

For our non-German speakers, here is a translation of Klaus' post:
(note that it is not a word-by-word translation)

Since the deer season is finished, there is some time to share some thoughts about the lanyards again.

I don't want to compare myself with experts like Görtz, Kornmayer and Reckendorf, so I will only share the few comments on German lanyards that have been found in German archives. Before I do this, my view on the opinions already given here. I don't feel a need to prove what I know. Whether the lanyards with the carbine hook are of a lesser quality because of their ability to rust is something that anyone may consider for himself. Your thoughts that the Portuguese lanyards were produced with leather attachments in order to prevent scratching the lanyard loop on collector pistols is worth considering, but I doubt that this factor was very important, also looking back at the opinions of the experts mentioned earlier. Every collector has to form his own opinion in this case. I will repeat here what Joachim Görtz said in his book 'Die Pistole 08' on page 106/107: "The holster and lanyard are of Portuguese manufacture".

It is a pity that some wrongfully published information starts living its own life during the years: Ritzmann grips on Krieghoffs instead of Römmler, or S.D. interpreted as Sicherheitsdienst instead of 'Schutzpolize Düsseldorf", etc…

Back to the very limited archive material about the lanyards:
The Commander of the Army orders the use of the lanyard for horse mounted troops with P08 pistols in the general army publications of the 22nd of November, 1935. Besides the reason and methods of use this order specifically mentions that the CARBINE HOOK is to be left attached to the pistol at all times in order to prevent the loss of the lanyard.

With another order of the 7th of May, 1940 the P38 as well as a lanyard for that pistol is introduced and described. Here again the CARBINE HOOK is replaced by a loop which, compared with the CARBINE HOOK, provides better protection against losing the pistol.

This is as clear as I can make it. Everything else would be twisting the truth.

I hope this has helped to answer some questions about the use of the lanyard loop.

Bill, Yes of course! I have studied Luger lanyards for 20 years now and am not about to quit when information comes my way! If you have any photo's please let me know where I can see them.

lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net

Vlim, Many thanks for your photo's and translation! These are very helpful.

Jerry Burney

Jerry,

I will take some photos and try my first forum picture posts into this thread
and add some info why I think it is likely non-fake

Vlim ,

thanks for sharing the in-depth info / pictures

Bill

There has been discussion regarding the limited use of lanyards in the German military, but why are the Bulgarians left out who probably used the lanyard more than any other army?

Albert

Albert, why are the Bulgarians left out ? Probably because there were so few Bulgarian Lugers compared with German.
Nothing intentional on my part..That is one GREAT photo! Is it possible I can capture it for my Lanyard archives?
I have been collecting lanyard photo's for 15 years..I have many German and Polish. I believe also some Bulgarian combat troops.

Thanks for posting this most excellent photograph! Very nice.

Jerry Burney

Albert,
That is an outstanding photo! Thank you for sharing it.

Jerry from Luger Holster Repair
 

Please check your PM.
Thank You;
Bill

This Luger laynard is now posted on ebay. Looks interesting.

http://cgi.ebay.com/WWI-ORIGINAL-GER...item439edfd173