Well, Aaron knows his name and thought he was being dealt with honestly. I have bought 3 or 4 lugers from new members here over the last 8 years and 2 lugers from guys off of ebay who mentioned they had lugers and another from a friend of a friend. I have not been burnt yet, almost none of them had licenses.


It is a chance you take and I have not received a crappy gun yet, most were shooters and I gave resonable prices, but three were nice guns and I gave them close to $1200.


I guess I am guilable too? But I don't feel that way, perhaps too trusting, but I haven't been burnt yet...


Ed

Ed, Your an honest man, we all know that. but there are people out there who would just as soon rip you off as look at you, they are to lazy to work for a living, so they steal from the trusting. we all have to be carfull who we deal with, it,s a shame but that,s the way it is. "But" no one is going to rip off an ole MP.

I was the victim of a scam because I was greedy. It's greed that makes most people fall for such schemes. I guess it was the offer of a KM Mauser rig for $1200 which made me turn into a sucker. Yes, all the signs were there, no pics available, I never checked on the seller, he seemed to know nothing of what he was selling, etc. He claimed to have met me at a gun show and I took him at his word. My bad......I deserve what happened. Ed, if this can help anyone, use it any way you like.

I met a situation last year. I was an online seller and a buyer tried hard to cheat me. Here is the story:

I had a rifle for sell online asking $780. A guy contacted me saying he wanted it, straight forward, no bargain, he would pay $780 + shipping but he's traveling and his wife would send me a check. I reminded him I need 01 FFL besides $$ to send a gun out. "No problem", he replied.

The check arrived in a few days. Weird enough, it's a AT&T company check and the amount was not $800, it's $4000. This guy even called me explaining the mistake -- he bought two guns, $800 & $4000, and his stupid wife sent me the wrong check. He asked me to deposit this check and he trusted "You are honest and would refund $3200 back to me".

Actually, the cheating situation was obvious here (when I looked back). However, the desire to sell this gun out blinded my eyes, and I did not reject the transaction immediately. I told him the check must be cleared before I refund anything, and the gun could only be sent to a 01 FFL holder. He said he would be back to home in a few days and find a transfering dealer.

The check was deposited and the annoying part started. This guy kept pushing me to refund him via "Western Union" (wire transfer), and gave me detail steps on how to do that with great patience. I re-evaluated the situation, felt very uncomfortable with this type of transaction and decided to cancel it. So I informed him transaction cancelled, and his original $4000 check would be sent back to him.

It took the bank almost two weeks to find that check being a fake one. The bank sent me a photocopy of that check later. Of course, I did not have to pay postage to send it back.... his address was fake as well.

Some emails are still in my InBox. The amount on the check was 3800. Now I remembered. Even without assuming anything else, it's abnormal senario to see a buyer instructing a seller what to do next. But I was not alerted at that time.

Email #1
======

Thanks for your message.. I will want you to kindly remove the list from GA because i am ready for the instant purchase. I will instruct my wife to send out the check and also send the FFL as soon as possible to you because i am presently on my way out of country to United Kingdom(UK) on a business trip.She will be sending out a cashier's check on your name and send it to your provided address as soon as possible.. I will call her later when i get to UK to know if she has sent it and i will keep you updated asap.

Hope to read from you soon when the item is removed.

Regards
David Garcia.



Email #2
======
Hello,

This is what i came with from my Wife.... the certified cashier's check has been sent for sure but there was a mistake because i actually told her to send check to two people for me(you and a friend) now she made a mistake by sending the check that is suppose to be sent to you to my friend and the one to be sent to my friend to you. I blamed her a lot for this silly mistake and i think i can trust you with this... The check that suppose to be sent to my friend is with the amount of $3800. Now in order not to delay the transaction once you just get the check of $3800 please just go ahead and cash it and deduct payment for your item and you can help me send the rest to my friend or my Wife.. I believe that is the best way not to delay the transaction because the check has been sent already.

Please i want your trust and honesty in this...Please you can reach me on this number +447024091442 in case you have any urgent message to deliver to me or send me an email.

Hope to read from you as soon as possible.
David Garcia

I had a very similar set of circumstances last week-which I did not fall for- when selling a framed set of Player's Cigarette Cards, "Aircraft of the RAF 1938" last week. The dead give away is the "Send the difference by Western Union". That is like sending cash through the mail and even less safe.

Tom A

It is a common scam in security circles; and folks get bilked out of hundreds or thousands of dollars. They'll suck you in even more by suggestting, hey, keep an extra $50-$100 for your trouble, so it seems even more legit.


I hate criminals and scam artists, they should be.... Well, Tom knows what should happen to them ;)



Ed

Iboos,

We all do foolish things from time to time. No one needs their nose rubbed in it afterward.

davidkachel, what foolish thing are you talking about? i was just making a comment. i did not mean to offend any one. but thank you for your opin.

Gentlemen, This is why scams work for so long. We don't want to get our nose rubbed in it. It's embarrasing to tell the World you were robbed. I say shout it from the rooftops and expose any and all of these bandits and their methods. The more we talk it over (politely) we can learn from others and help to keep from making mistakes we have heard about here.

So far it is very productive and I don't enjoy reading about anyones troubles but learn from them.

As far as Ed not being ripped off...Yet. It's like an accidental discharge for shooters. Not a matter of if... but when and how bad. You cannot be too cautious. One other reason I so enjoy dealing with fellow collectors.

Jerry Burney

I would get on a plane and pay him a "visit"

They relocate like cockroaches.......

Aaron,
Thx for sharing your ugly experience with us. Hopefully the tough lesson that you've learned will benefit all of us. I think Jerry is correct in that it is almost inevitable for any and/or all of us to get scammed at some point in time. It seems that the cheaters are pretty creative and are working much harder than any of us to gain an unfair advantage. Stories like this help to socialize the pitfalls of collecting via the Internet and through the mail and are good lessons learned.
Lyn

You have to keep in mind that a "confidence" man survives precisely because he is adept at deception and gaining another's confidence.
If he was not skilled in his trade, he would go out of business.

As we become more wary, they become more adept at confidence building.
Sort of like the virus/anti-virus computer cycle.

If you are not as skilled at avoiding these kinds of scams, it is easy to be prey to them. Unfortunately, looking for trouble is the only way to see it before it happens.

This is the reason also that "cashier checks", "official checks" etc. are no longer good-as-cash. A few years ago, I tried to cash one, at my own bank, and was asked for my account number. When I said it shouldn't be needed on a cashier check, the teller said it could still come back on them, and thus on me. In other words, it really is no different on the receiving end from any other check, although they have to be paid for with secured funds on the purchase end. Assuming that they are not bogus from the get-go - which is the problem - until clearance, they may prove forged.

The latest scam sweeping the country is bogus company checks from large corporations such as ATT, IBM, etc.
It gives receivers inmediate confidence that the check is good since it is seemingly backed by a multi-million dollar corporation and a convincing check can be dummied up by anybody with access to a good printing facility.
Never accept at face value a corporate check from anybody you don't know and especially if it is for more than the amount of the transaction in question.

Aaron,

I live in Miami. What was the full name and address that came up for this individual? I can ask around the gun community here and if he is still around perhaps embarrass him into paying up.

This all presents an interesting general issue which is: how can Internet buyers and sellers of little stuff (like Lugers) get justice when things go wrong? The answer is that our courts are poorly equipped to handle these cases, but there is progress here and there.

A victim could simply sue the offender in the victim's local JP court, or equivalent. There are issues, of course. Service is an issue, to be sure, but not insurmountable, interstate service of process is do-able. Successful service alone may do the trick - most coherent adults will move to take care of things once a lawsuit is actually served.

Jurisdiction comes next, and the subject of so-called "long arm" jurisdiction as to internet sales is a swiftly moving stream, however courts do seem to be warming to the idea that a person who knowingly sells to another in another state can reasonably expect to be haled into court in that state. Some recent opinions seem to be lowering the bar to interstate suits over Internet transactions. The picture is best described as "muddy".

But if you actually did get a judgment against a bad guy, then he is the one who has to deal with the mud - and you could possibly collect in the the bad guy's state before he can do so. Again, a small flock of civil procedure issues, but not insurmountable, and the judgment debtor could be made to pay for the surmounting.

Many JP courts these days make it easy to file a lawsuit yourself, and have forms and checklists to guide you. The wave of the future for Internet justice? Hard to say. But might be worth a try in some situations.

H

The above is not legal advice but, rather, speculative ramblings on abstract legal theory. Consult a licensed attorney in your state if you want actual legal advice on a real case.

Well, you do not need to consult with an attorney if you chose to file a complaint of consumer fraud. Every state will have procedures for dealing with complaints of consumer fraud, and the process is totally free. To find out what they are in the state where the seller lives, use "Google" to search "consumer fraud, (name of the state where the seller lives)" And remember, once a buyer can show that fraud has been committed, the so-called three-day time limit for return of the item is invalid.

Mauser720 - Ron

Sir,
I was employed with the US Postal Service for over 26 years. I have also worked with the Postal Inspectors on numerous occasions to retrieve my money sent by US Mail to another State.

I suggest you find a Postal Inspectors Office and register your complaint with a real person. Most large MSC's (Mail Sectional Centers) have an Inspectors office. Take your original documentation (phone #'s & records, addresses, names, dates, receipts, etc.) with you. However, give the Inspector COPIES of everything. You will also need to write the facts of everything that occured cronologically. If it takes a week and 5 pages, so be it. Be as detailed as possible. You are essentailly starting your own case file.

Once a complaint has been filed, the Inspection Service legally must investigate the events and talk to the offender and remedy any fraud situation whether monitarilly or legally charging him.

It takes about 2-3 months before results but you will get your money. You will need to stay in touch with the agent in charge of your case file.

Remember this, YOU have to do the work BEFORE talking with the Inspectors.

Good luck whether you eat the loss or use your trusted Government Agency. Wow! Part of that sounds like a joke doesn't it?

Aaron:

I friend works a computer company and says there is no telephone number that he can put and name and address too.

I would like to prove him wrong.

George