Well why would there be a skull and crossbones on a crucifix? Jus wondering.

The Skull and Crossbones is a reference to John's Gospel 18:19. It is found on many vintage Crucifix's from all over the world. Here are links to a couple of exaples similar to yours.

http://www.rubylane.com/shops/victor.../04111?gbase=1
http://www.goantiques.com/detail,192...source=VYZ4474

Willyboy,

Christ was crucified on a hill named Golgatha. That translates to "The place of the skull"; throught time, images of the crucifixin have included skulls and other human remains in the background or foreground. Golgotha was a place of execution, not just for Christ but for anyone the local Roman authorities decided to execute. Bodies were left in the open and animals undoubtedly made meals out of them, leaving bones as remnants.

Tom A

Yep Tom you are correct... I saw 18:19 several times on a search, not sure how that ties in to the Skull. Interesting question though.. I was curious myself

Thankx guys.

yes, I should have been more exact Ron, the Dutch Indies did order 10,000 lugers, but that is total over the years, not 10,000 Vickers.

The Vickers marked lugers were a continuation of the DWM guns made if I remember correctly. ;), so that is what I meant.


Ed

Willyboy Ok is the answer

Will,

Yes, you need to remove the grip screw at the bottom of the right grip to lift off, carefully, the wooden grip.

If you see the "GS" stramping in the wood on the inside surface, that right grip is one made locally in Indonesia.

Removal of the left grip is a bit tricky...as one can break off the sculpted cutout of the wood around the bottom of the thumb safety lever.

To do it, remove the left grip screw and while pushing and holding down the magazine release buttom, lift the bottom of the left grip up enough and then slide it down along the grip strap...mostly parallel to the grip strap.

If you are too agreesive and jst lift the left grip up of the frame, you could break that little piece of wood along the bottom of the thumb safety lever.

If you take the left wooden grip off, let us know what stampings you might see along its interior surface...

I can help a bit with the rifle. If you could post a close up of the serial number area, that would help more. But with the info you provided, that 24th series Kokura would possibly have been made in early 1944, probably without the monopod although it still used a monopod type rear band. I cannot tell from the photo, but it appears the rear sight is the type without the anti-aircraft fold down wings. Check the bolt and extractor to see if the 3 digit serial numbers match the last 3 of the receiver serial number, it should but some do not due to bolts being mixed at some point. Look at the mum on the receiver and see if it has any strike or punch marks on it, if not then its an untouched mum which is always a sought after thing. The cleaning rod is missing from the rifle. The bayonet appears to be the standard Type 30 bayonet, it should have a manufactures mark on the blade.

Next to the crucifix, the Gott Mit Uns piece, is actually the center of an Imperial German Army belt buckle, from the 1914-1918 First World War. I would guess Grandpa found the buckle somewhere and pried the center out of it for a souvenier.

There is absolutely no historical evidence that the ss ever authorized a deaths head on a Crucifix. There is however an extrodinary amount of evidence to the effect that they would not have.

Serial # is 55419. Yes, you are correct, no anti-air sight. Sorry I'm not very knowledgeable with guns, what is the extractor. On bolt=515. Mum is perfectly intact. I know how it is the sign of the emperor and it was scratched of at the end of the war. The bayonet is a hooked quillion and was made at the same arsenal as the rifle.

The extractor is the long metal piece that runs down the side of the bolt. It should also have a serial number stamped at the rear of it. It appears the bolt is mismatched to the rifle. Too bad but rather common.

Im in the antique business,and come across many many crosses just like the one that was posted, with the skull and all. You wouldnt believe how many times ive heard similar stories that the skull means it was a Nazi item. As its been pointed out numerous times here, it has nothing to do with the Nazis. Also, the Nazis werent the most religious people. They used some elements of Christianity, but they made their own "religion" of their ideology. They certainly didnt make special Nazi SS officer crosses.

Yes that is for sure, haha. Hitler was god to the SS, and I doubt hitler would want it any other way. There is a few different types of skull symbols used by the nazi's during the war.. People have to understand the skull and crossbones as a symbol isnt a nazi invention! Pirates used it aswell :-)

It's been well over five years since I first did any research on my grandpa's luger. I'm thankful for all of your help in figuring some things out about this gun. I have never attempted to clean or restore it, but I still wish to. My grandpa passed away about 3 years ago and my grandma is in ailing health now. Selfishly, I hope that the interest I have in this gun would give me some sort of claim to, although that is pure speculation. If I decide to try to restore this gun, I will post updates here.

Thanks again.
WB

WB, I opened the thread and said, ohhh, a dutch gun (I like them) and then saw it was from long ago :)

Remember, usually not a restore, just clean her up is best :)

The dagger is, indeed, Heer (army) although the grip is not ivory. It's a celluloid type product. It may have darkened some but may also have been colored when new. The blade should not be sharp. There were several dozen different makers of them and should have a makers mark near the hilt. They were not weapons of war and carried with dress uniforms on ceremonial occasions.

A couple of things to consider:

I have my Grandfather's Luger and I would never part with it.

I would never "restore" it because that would remove most of the history and collector value. That matters little to me.

I would never "restore" it because things are only original once. While the appearance may be improved, it would not longer have the original finish. That matters somewhat to me.

I would never "restore" it because it would cease to be how my Grandfather left it. That matters most to me.


If you have the honor of receiving your Grandfather's things, I'd recommend leaving things as they are.

WillyBoy,

It would be wise to stabilize the rust occurring on your pistol. You can do that by using oiled bronze or steel wool, then properly lubricating it with a preserving gun oil (like RemOil or something similar). This should be done after carefully removing the grips so that you can see those metal surfaces, and not get the oil onto the grips.

The plate is likely softer than steel, so be quite careful not to scratch it.

Your pistol is in such rare and good condition that it doesn't need restoration. Refinishing it would destroy it's history and a good portion of it's value.

Make sure your grandmother knows of your interest, and commitment to preserve it as a family heirloom.

Marc

Amen with that statement. That way you can always look at the gun and think about the times you had with your grandfather. As time passes youll respect that thought and be glad you left it the way your grandfather had it. And the story to tell with it.