Russell,

The position and 'look' of the 1920 on the receiver suggests to me that this is the 1920 property mark, not a production date. It would be very useful to see a photo of the serial number on the front of the frame.


--Dwight

Thank you all for the support.

So, Gerben, is this hodgepodge of parts likely to negatively impact the value and/or serviceability of the Luger?

The serial # at the front of the frame is not in any of the pics I took yet. It is partially still white. The '3' has a round top as on the bottom of the barrel but unlike the receiver # flat-top digit. If '8' was added later would it be the leading digit, Dwight?

There is no letter â??aâ?? that I can see. What would that have signified, Ed?

Yes, John, now I see the sear. I see the notch and hole. And thanks for helping me get my HTML straight.

Would adding a sear safety substantially increase the value, or the safety, of the weapon, Howard?

And thanks to Thomas and Dwight for pointing me to Mike Krause here in San Mateo. With any luck he will be in this afternoon. Hope he has an inexpensive holster for sale.

You guys are great. It looks like you started this forum as recently as 2002. You have obviously been collecting and sharing for years unto decades. I'd love to hear how this all got started.

With respect and admiration,

Russell

Russell, all the ones I have seen so far, that are like mine, are "a" suffixed. So, yours may not be, it just fits the pattern, Crown n, off-set numbering on the left, 1920 or 1921 dated...


ed

Took it to Krause Werke this afternoon. As I get it, Mike says it is a 1920 rework for police use after which it probably saw service in the Third Reich military minus the sear safety. Not all the parts are numbered.

Also, as I hear him, the five digit serial # continued through the 9xxxx and was later dropped in favor of four digits plus a letter suffix. Makes sense when you are producing hundreds of thousands of guns for a major war.

Now one starts to think about the skeletons. How many European and American soldiers as well as innocents might it have been used to take out?

I got my holster and take-down tool from Mike. He has several fine looking Lugers including an Artillery piece I especially like. The finish is superb and the ramp-sight has all of its teeth. He has a few C96 Broomhandles including a Red 9 he is readying for sale. The shop is full of all manner of rifles and pistols and relic revolvers. There are lots of other militaria to browse. What a candy store!

Before I left I made sure I could fieldstrip and re-assemble properly. I am actually beginning to get comfortable. Most of the credit goes to contributers to this forum. Thanks again for your warm welcome.

My new avatar is M-1. Astronomer Charles Messier's 18th century catalog of non-stellar celestial objects begins with Messier 1 the Crab Nebula supernova remnant. If I ever find a celestial object designated P-08 you will see it here.

Russell

Russell,

What did Mike tell you about the failure of the toggle to completely close?

--Dwight

Fair enough, Tac.
No need to dwell on that aspect of our history (my family is of German descent).

As for the concern about the sticky toggle, Dwight, the dealer may have oiled it up; it seems to work fine now. I hope to put 50 or 100 rounds through it this weekend. I'll definitely be watching out for any malfunctions.

Thanks

I'm a bit late on this, but I believe Dwights thought of the 1920 being a property mark and not a production date is correct. If it was a 1920 production, it would have dove proofs and/or WaA4 acceptance marks on the right side of the receiver. I cannot see any proofs in the photos.

Russell,

If you enter the website through our homepage www.lugerforum.com you will find that in the top edge of the largest frame that this forum was founded in 1998 by a fellow named John Chapman.. who to the best of my knowledge is no longer a member, but I don't know why. It started on a free server located in Taiwan of all places, but moved to its current location and in its current format in 2002.

Russell
Where is Mike's shop located? Is it open to the public or his personal work area? I make it down that way every once in a while and would like to see some of the "good stuff" that is out in the public.

Jerry

Mike's shop did have a website but Network solutions is reporting that his domain name Krausewerk.com expired on April 2, 2006...

KrausewerK Collectibles
83 21st Ave.
San Mateo, CA 94403

650-571-7583, Fax 650-851-2474

Mike is in the store mostly early afternoon. He seems to spend much of the time answering the phone. Now that the address and phone # are out there I don't expect his stock of Lugers to last long. Just leave me first shot at his C-96 Red 9, Zin.

1998 still seems like a short time to have reached such an eclectic group of Luger lovers, or, may I coin a term? 'Lugermaniacs' That is what my wife thinks I am becoming. She could be right! I met her in Taiwan of all places.

Here is the frame front serial # as Dwight suggested as well as the bottom of the barrel. A little late, I admit. Looks like he and Ron are correct.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...808_1920ft.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...808_1920bt.jpg

Russell,

Thanks for the pics. I'm curious to know what the stamp is over the serial number on the barrel, and whether or not the barrel has a witness mark?

--Dwight

Russell,
contrary to what TAC said, its hard not to wonder about the history of this gun. There are so many variations and so much to learn. I have started accumulating books on audio tapes about WW1 and am now a very amateur historian of this period. I just finished a book called "The 11th hour of the the 11th day of the 11th month" and I cried a bit while reading it. So much needless suffering in the last hours of that war. The last American soldier to officially die in combat died at 10:59AM and everyone on both sides knew that the treaty was signed at 6am that day. But he was ordered to attack a village at 10:30AM that the Americans would occupy, by treaty, the next day.

But, aside from that, if your Lugers toggle continues to not close after you clean it, you might look into getting a new main spring that is located in the handle of the gun. Your spring may be either worn out or even may be the wrong size. Check with your gunsmith about that. Could be dangerous.
Big Norm

Dwight,

The small stamp on the barrel looks like a normal commercial crown/N proof, a bit poorly struck. You also see that the original commercial style numbering is still present on the takedown lever.

It wouldn't surprise me if the barrel is original to the gun. It has the overall appearance of a normal commercial gun that had a 1920 property mark and military style numbering added.

The question is whether the renumbering was done by DWM or by some police/reichswehr armorer. The fact that it's numbered in the 80,000 range is interesting.

Gerben,

I suspected that about the barrel proof, just wanted to confirm as the barrel is 9mm. I'm sure that Police use accounts for a number of this gun's characteristics, note the long (unrelieved) sear bar, unexpected on a gun this late.

This part of the serial number range has quite a few 1920 marked chambers (some of them may be dates), 9mm, Police guns, at least one with an SPC mark.

--Dwight

Before I add my two cents to the discussion about the 5-digit serial number, I'd like to ask Russell about the unit mark on the bottom of the front grip strap. The photo is somewhat unclear but it looks like SP. over ?. I can't make out the ? or whether there is a period between the S and P. I would greatly appreciate a clear photo of the mark or a good description. I'm also interested in knowing if the front of the grip strap appears to have been ground.

Notwithstanding the above uncertainties, your pistol belonged to the Schutzpolizei (SP. or S.P.) in one of the major cities in the Weimar German state of Saxony. The city is designated by the abbreviation below the SP. The most common one is Leipzig (L.). If the front of the grip strap has been ground, it almost certainly was to remove an earlier unit mark of the form S.L.Pol.xxxx. (S�¤chsische Landespolizei) of the State Police of Saxony.

Now, about the serial number. Not long ago, I posted the following on the new NAPCA forum hoping for some additional information on the topic Ed brought up here. So far, I have had no response.

Perhaps someone can clear up a couple of puzzles regarding DWMâ??s production in 1920 and 1921. The conventional wisdom as I understand it is that DWM resumed production in 1919-20 with two lines of production.

One line was the â??commercialâ?� line beginning with approximately s/n 75000. This five-digit numbering scheme continued into 1921 up to about 92000 when it was replaced by the approach of limiting the numbers to blocks from 1 to 9999 followed by a letter suffix. The first of these was numbered approximately 2000i. The numbers were repeated with the letters incrementing through h, k, etc. to u when DWM (BKIW) production was transferred to Mauser in 1930.

The other production line was for military and police contracts. These pistols were chamber dated 1920 and 1921 and the parts serial numbered in the military style. Serial numbers began each year with 1 to 9999 no suffix and progressed through two successive blocks of numbers with â??aâ?� and â??bâ?� suffixes. This line of production was shut down in 1921 at the insistence of the Interallied Military Control Commission.

In my research into police unit markings, I have run across two challenges to this conventional wisdom.

Five-digit serial numbers beginning with â??8â?�

About two years ago, there was a discussion on Jan Stillâ??s forum about several 1921-dated DWMs with five-digit serial numbers in the 8XXXX range and an â??aâ?� suffix (http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=664). Most of these were police unit marked O.P.M.xxx. A recent thread on the same forum revived this subject and came to the tentative conclusion that this marking represented the Ordnungspolizei of Mecklenberg-Schwerin (http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5988). It was speculated that an â??8â?� had been prefixed to the original serial numbers but no reason was identified.

In my database of police unit marks there are a number of 1921-dated Lugers with 8XXXXa serial numbers. There are also a number of examples of 1920 and 1921-dated pistols without suffixes that I am beginning to suspect really belong with this group. Hereâ??s what I have so far:

1920 dated, no suffix

83970
One intermediate
85260

1921 dated, no suffix

85473
8723x S.W.I.775
87893 S.W.I.719.
886xx S.H.888
88980 S.H.1208.
894xx S.W.I.1.145
At least two intermediate
89572

1921 dated, â??aâ?� suffix

unknown O.P.M. 90
83203a O.P.M. 309
83204a O.P.M. 399
83240a O.P.M. 305
83282a O.P.M. 431
83426a S.Hn.
83591a O.P.M. 274

The entries without a unit mark and the statements about intermediate serial numbers are based on information in Jan Stillâ??s Weimar Lugers, Table 1a, p. 13. These represent serial numbers that have been included under the heading WEIMAR 5 DIGIT SN DWM LUGER.

I am wondering if all of the above should be considered together. I suspect this topic has been discussed in Auto Mag in past years and would appreciate any insights that may have been gained.

Ed has already posted some of the data listed above. If the chamber mark on Russell's gun is really the 1920 property stamp and it was originally part of DWM's postwar commercial production, there may be no real anomaly about it's serial number. The serial number on Russel's gun is centered on the frame and does not suggest that the lead "8" was added. This may also indicate that the other three pistols listed above as "1920 dated" fall into the same category. However, the same cannot be said for the "1921 dated" pistols with or without the "a" suffix.

Yes, the proof mark on the barrel is rather shallow and incomplete. The dealer did check the bore when I bought it and it takes and extracts 9mm cortridges properly. Just for the heck of it I chambered a .380 ACP casing which it could not extract but fit loosly and fell out easily. As you can tell I'm just now beginning to learn the peculiarities of different callibers and types of ammo and firearms in general. Anyway, tomorrow is shakedown day.

The grips have no numbering. Does this mean I can put on other grips that are less worn without diminishing the value? The damage to the right grip looks to have been traumatic and recent.

Big Norm's comments deserve further exploration which I guess would be best served in the 'Off Topic' section.

I really appreciate all of you Luger experts taking time and bandwidth to help guide us newcommers.

Don,

The letter under 'SP' is 'S'

Russell

Too off topic and getting into politics and the moderators will end it fairly quick. We'd rather not talk politics on the forum...



In ref to your grips. Keep the "originals" and it doesn't matter what is on them. Evenif unmarked / unnumbered, not all of them were, so they could be original, depending on the age of them etc...


ed

Russel,

According to a survey I did a bit earlier on the topic, grips on commercial Lugers in your serial range can be expected to be found without numbers.

--Dwight

Russell,

Are you sure that it is an S under the SP? There were no cities in Saxony beginning with S that appear to have been large enough for a Schupo unit. Observed abbreviations are L, C, D, M and Zw. I would also not be surprised to see D�¶, P or Pl, R, Re or Ri, F, Z or Zi or G. But not S!

Would it be possible for you to post a clear photo of the mark?

Also, what about a period or not between the S and P and whether the front grip strap has been ground?

It seems that you may have the only known (to me) example of a pistol from whatever city it turns out to be!