Tuning for Reliability

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

That is the problem, then they start playing with springs, modifying them, exchanging them, replacing them. Then they sell it to the next person and fiddling continues.

Only way to modify P08 to digest modern ammo would be to some how magically increase overall mass of the breach or move forward the point where rear toggle link links with 'S' link . Moving this point forward by even a fraction of a mm would tremendously decrease cycling rate of toggle train.
Increasing or decreasing spring preload will lead only to premature wear and tear of various parts.

I beg to differ. Both my P08s ( BYF 41 and a 1915 DWM) work without problems with current ammo ( Winchester White box; Magtech and Geco) and with my reloads with slower powders (VV N340 and Vectan BA9).
I believe they both still have their original springs.

[SIGP2101]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I beg to differ. Both my P08s ( BYF 41 and a 1915 DWM) work without problems with current ammo ( Winchester White box; Magtech and Geco) and with my reloads with slower powders (VV N340 and Vectan BA9).
I believe they both still have their original springs.

I believe you. I had same experience with few P08 myself. Lots of them work flawlessly but topics is about stubborn ones and how to make them work.
Another important aspect is OAL. My experience with WWB is that is not consistent from box to box.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

I believe you. I had same experience with few P08 myself. Lots of them work flawlessly but topics is about stubborn ones and how to make them work.
Another important aspect is OAL. My experience with WWB is that is not consistent from box to box.

What puzzles me the most here is that Michael's P08 should not be a stubborn one. Mismatched p08s acting up is no surprise to me, but a matching Kriegoff should work just fine.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

What puzzles me the most here is that Michael's P08 should not be a stubborn one. Mismatched p08s acting up is no surprise to me, but a matching Kriegoff should work just fine.

Hi,

Yes, but Mike has had some real difficulty in getting his P-08 model Lugers to function reliably. I can't understand it either, as all of my Lugers, after a little study, have worked very reliably; and reliably is defined, by me, as no jams in 1,000 rounds shot.


Sieger

[SIGP2101]

Originally Posted by kurusu

What puzzles me the most here is that Michael's P08 should not be a stubborn one. Mismatched p08s acting up is no surprise to me, but a matching Kriegoff should work just fine.

Why? There is no way anyone can tell if gun has all matching springs. Springs don't come numbered to the gun. It is all in the springs, four springs work together in co-junction to deliver. Even if still have all originals some of them must be tired after all those years in and out of service. Throw in non matching magazine into equation and you get pretty dis-balanced platform to trouble shoot.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

Why? There is no way anyone can tell if gun has all matching springs. Springs don't come numbered to the gun. It is all in the springs, four springs work together in co-junction to deliver. Even if still have all originals some of them must be tired after all those years in and out of service. Throw in non matching magazine into equation and you get pretty dis-balanced platform to trouble shoot.

Hi,

Agreed, but Mike has experienced this problem with several mint models P-08 he owns and over various manufacturers.

Again, it will be both interesting and challenging to discover the true source of the problem.


Sieger

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Again, it will be both interesting and challenging to discover the true source of the problem.

The balance of my life suggests bad luck.

To recap:

1. I doubt that I've been limp-wristing. One of my favorite carry guns is a 3" Manurhin MR73 stuffed with six 158 gr full-tilt .357 Magnum pills. I hold my nines the same way I hold that medium-frame Magnum.
2. I've tried all combinations in the Wolff tuning pack. (Correction: the recoil spring weights are 36, 38, and 40 lbs.) The pistol is like new inside. I've tried fresh MecGar mags tuned by GT and minty Haenel-Schmeisser mags. I find no indication of anything going awry, outside of shooting live ammo. I fire a single shot out of a good Luger with more speed and precision than out of any other modern firearm. It chaps my ass that I cannot follow up in kind.
3. I do well with my LP08 Persian Artillery and a 10" pencil-barreled National Match W+F P06/29. Regrettably, they are ill-suited for defensive carry in virtue of bulk and rarity. A standard W+F 06/29, and a similarly sized 1906 Portuguese Mauser, perform nearly as well, but their defensive use is limited by the selection of 7.65mm Para ammo. I'm waiting on a 6" Werle-tuned Mauser P08 in 9mm Para without getting my hopes up.

[LugerVern]

I have had some problems with some old & new P08's that ended up being poorly cut/ rough chambers.

On the old guns the chamber was sometimes too rough and the casing would drag on the way out causing a jam on the next round and the failure to pick up the next round

On new guns like the stainless ones the chamber was way too tight and using a "new" finishing reamer would correct all problems with the functioning of the gun.

Some Questions for everyone: I don't know the answers- not for sure
1) Is there a difference between the brass used in the 40's and now?
2) Could it be that the new powders create too much pressure even though within modern limits?
3)Is the bullet crimping different than used or perhaps tighter?
4) Could primers be an issue, the pressure curve inside a casing varies greatly depending on the primer and this could cause sticking of the case on the back end on a tight chamber?

When you consider that "newly" created lugers have functioning issues even the HK's then something else is going on!!

Just some things to think about

Vern

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

The balance of my life suggests bad luck.

To recap:

1. I doubt that I've been limp-wristing. One of my favorite carry guns is a 3" Manurhin MR73 stuffed with six 158 gr full-tilt .357 Magnum pills. I hold my nines the same way I hold that medium-frame Magnum.
2. I've tried all combinations in the Wolff tuning pack. (Correction: the recoil spring weights are 36, 38, and 40 lbs.) The pistol is like new inside. I've tried fresh MecGar mags tuned by GT and minty Haenel-Schmeisser mags. I find no indication of anything going awry, outside of shooting live ammo. I fire a single shot out of a good Luger with more speed and precision than out of any other modern firearm. It chaps my ass that I cannot follow up in kind.
3. I do well with my LP08 Persian Artillery and a 10" pencil-barreled National Match W+F P06/29. Regrettably, they are ill-suited for defensive carry in virtue of bulk and rarity. A standard W+F 06/29, and a similarly sized 1906 Portuguese Mauser, perform nearly as well, but their defensive use is limited by the selection of 7.65mm Para ammo. I'm waiting on a 6" Werle-tuned Mauser P08 in 9mm Para without getting my hopes up.

If all your P08s act up with you, and considering your shooting experience.
I would say. Bad luck indeed!
I hope you manage to overcome the problems. Bear in mind that most problems with p08 pistols end up being magazine fitting related.

Just curious, Your Portuguese is a "GNR" right? If so it should be called a 1906/34.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I beg to differ. Both my P08s ( BYF 41 and a 1915 DWM) work without problems with current ammo ( Winchester White box; Magtech and Geco) and with my reloads with slower powders (VV N340 and Vectan BA9).
I believe they both still have their original springs.

Hi,

For a perfect fast powder target load, that works every time, try the following:

WW Commercial Cases
Remington 1 1/2 Primers
Hornady 124 gr FMJRN
Bullseye 3.7 grains
Cartridge Overall Length 1.173 inches

This is a fantastic target load, but it is a light one, less than 1,000 fps. On normal occasions, with hand held over a sandbag, up to seven have touched on a 25 yard target.

If you HAVE TO shoot fast powder, this load is an excellent one to use. Higher powder charges with this powder will cause both wider groups and cause jams.

The Winchester White Box, for me anyway, is not accurate in a Luger, as it throws bullets all over the paper at 25 yards, whereas, my carefully crafted handloads will put all eight in the 10 ring at 25 yards. Please search this section for a full listing of my most accurate handloads, if you like.

Just some of my experience with fast powders in a Luger.


Sieger

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

For a perfect fast powder target load, that works every time, try the following:

WW Commercial Cases
Remington 1 1/2 Primers
Hornady 124 gr FMJRN
Bullseye 3.7 grains
Cartridge Overall Length 1.173 inches

This is a fantastic target load, but it is a light one, less than 1,000 fps. On normal occasions, with hand held over a sandbag, up to seven have touched on a 25 yard target.
Sieger

I avoid reloading with fast powders. Exception .32 wadcutter

Originally Posted by Sieger

The Winchester White Box, for me anyway, is not accurate in a Luger, as it throws bullets all over the paper at 25 yards, where was, my carefully crafted handloads will put all eight in the 10 ring at 25 yards. Please search this section for a full listing of my most accurate handloads, if you like.

Just some of my experience with fast powders in a Luger.


Sieger

There's a trick to WWBox. You have to sort them out by weight.
Proof. Competition target 25 meters one hand shooting
Mcruz-50-series-IMG_3101.jpg

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I avoid reloading with fast powders. Exception .32 wadcutter



There's a trick to WWBox. You have to sort them out by weight.
Proof. Competition target 25 meters one hand shooting
Attachment 43858

Hi,

You may not reload with fast powders, but if your shooting White Box, you certainly are shooting it.

Well, whatever "sorting" you are doing with White Box, apparently, seems to be working for you!

Good shooting!!!


Sieger

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

You may not reload with fast powders, but if your shooting White Box, you certainly are shooting it.

Sieger

When using factory ammo I'm forced to accept whatever powder they choose to use. If it performs well I'll keep using it.

Magtech ammo seems to use a faster powder than WWBox. It feels different in my hand.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

When using factory ammo I'm forced to accept whatever powder they choose to use. If it performs well I'll keep using it.

Magtech ammo seems to use a faster powder than WWBox. It feels different in my hand.

Hi,

While we are on the subject of Magtech, I just ordered some of their commercially available bullets, in another pistol caliber, and can tell you, after weighing some 300 bullets, that their consistency was excellent!!!

Quality control, from this Brazilian firm, seems excellent indeed!!!


Sieger

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

While we are on the subject of Magtech, I just ordered some of their commercially available bullets, in another pistol caliber, and can tell you, after weighing some 300 bullets, that their consistency was excellent!!!

Quality control, from this Brazilian firm, seems excellent indeed!!!


Sieger

A fellow shooter uses Magtech ammo in is P08 with good accuracy. But recently is rear toggle link developd cracks and he was forced to replace it. I'm not saying it was the ammo but it happened.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

While we are on the subject of Magtech, I just ordered some of their commercially available bullets, in another pistol caliber, and can tell you, after weighing some 300 bullets, that their consistency was excellent!!!

Quality control, from this Brazilian firm, seems excellent indeed!!!


Sieger

I've used their .38 spl wadcutters. They were allright. But my reloads using VV N340 and solid base wadcutters were way better.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

When using factory ammo I'm forced to accept whatever powder they choose to use. If it performs well I'll keep using it.

Magtech ammo seems to use a faster powder than WWBox. It feels different in my hand.

Hi,

You are one of the few Luger shooters, I've ever known, to comment regarding the "feel" of a Luger when you are shooting it. It's quite obvious, from the target attached, that you really know how to shoot a Luger.

Yes, I agree, that there is a different feel depending upon the burning rate of the powder used and, obviously, the charge used.

When I'm shooting a really accurate and functional load, the Luger seems to actually become a natural extension of my hand upon firing. This feeling is a bit rare in the shooting world, so its nice to find someone else that can really appreciate it.


Sieger