Grandpa's gun - Page 2

hansfischer007 · 11-24-2012, 11:33 PM

I picked up a couple of the same style Crucifix last year......and the Skull & Crossbones at the foot of the Cross......means "victory over death".....has nothing to do with the SS.......these are fairly common......

willyboy · 04-17-2007, 02:04 PM

Well why would there be a skull and crossbones on a crucifix? Jus wondering.

waltherguy · 04-17-2007, 02:40 PM

The Skull and Crossbones is a reference to John's Gospel 18:19. It is found on many vintage Crucifix's from all over the world. Here are links to a couple of exaples similar to yours.

http://www.rubylane.com/shops/victor.../04111?gbase=1
http://www.goantiques.com/detail,192...source=VYZ4474

sheepherder · 11-25-2012, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltherguy

The Skull and Crossbones is a reference to John's Gospel 18:19.

OK, this is way off-topic...But maybe one of you theological students can tell me what this particular passage has to do with the 'skull & crossbones'??? I tried looking it up in my bible...Either I have an old edition, or it is abridged...Or maybe I am just looking in the wrong place...

willyboy · 11-25-2012, 02:13 PM

Well, I believe that is the verse which explains golgotha, the hill where Jesus Christ was crucified. "Place of the Skull" or something like that. The crucifix skull thing is no issue here.

And yes, the s-hook is in place, I made sure of that when I reassembled the gun.

I am not sure if there is a hold open device that is activated when the magazine is empty.

sheepherder · 11-25-2012, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willyboy

Well, I believe that is the verse which explains golgotha, the hill where Jesus Christ was crucified...

I must have the Readers Digest version of the bible...That isn't what it says where I'm looking...

apis mellifera · 11-25-2012, 02:27 PM

That's because the actual reference in John is at 19:17.

Navy · 04-17-2007, 02:42 PM

Willyboy,

Christ was crucified on a hill named Golgatha. That translates to "The place of the skull"; throught time, images of the crucifixin have included skulls and other human remains in the background or foreground. Golgotha was a place of execution, not just for Christ but for anyone the local Roman authorities decided to execute. Bodies were left in the open and animals undoubtedly made meals out of them, leaving bones as remnants.

Tom A

waltherguy · 04-17-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tom A
Willyboy,

Christ was crucified on a hill named Golgatha. That translates to "The place of the skull"; throught time, images of the crucifixin have included skulls and other human remains in the background or foreground. Golgotha was a place of execution, not just for Christ but for anyone the local Roman authorities decided to execute. Bodies were left in the open and animals undoubtedly made meals out of them, leaving bones as remnants.

Tom A

Yep Tom you are correct... I saw 18:19 several times on a search, not sure how that ties in to the Skull. Interesting question though.. I was curious myself

willyboy · 04-17-2007, 03:04 PM

Thankx guys.

Edward Tinker · 04-17-2007, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Wood
...Actually only around 6000 Vickers Lugers were made for the Dutch. A few low serial numbered guns were made by Vickers for company executives and promotional purposes, so for a long time it was thought that the guns were numbered from 1 to a little over 10,000. ...

yes, I should have been more exact Ron, the Dutch Indies did order 10,000 lugers, but that is total over the years, not 10,000 Vickers.

The Vickers marked lugers were a continuation of the DWM guns made if I remember correctly.

, so that is what I meant.

Ed

the gunman · 04-17-2007, 09:22 PM

Willyboy Ok is the answer

Pete Ebbink · 04-17-2007, 09:29 PM

Will,

Yes, you need to remove the grip screw at the bottom of the right grip to lift off, carefully, the wooden grip.

If you see the "GS" stramping in the wood on the inside surface, that right grip is one made locally in Indonesia.

Removal of the left grip is a bit tricky...as one can break off the sculpted cutout of the wood around the bottom of the thumb safety lever.

To do it, remove the left grip screw and while pushing and holding down the magazine release buttom, lift the bottom of the left grip up enough and then slide it down along the grip strap...mostly parallel to the grip strap.

If you are too agreesive and jst lift the left grip up of the frame, you could break that little piece of wood along the bottom of the thumb safety lever.

If you take the left wooden grip off, let us know what stampings you might see along its interior surface...

Guntoter · 04-17-2007, 09:37 PM

I can help a bit with the rifle. If you could post a close up of the serial number area, that would help more. But with the info you provided, that 24th series Kokura would possibly have been made in early 1944, probably without the monopod although it still used a monopod type rear band. I cannot tell from the photo, but it appears the rear sight is the type without the anti-aircraft fold down wings. Check the bolt and extractor to see if the 3 digit serial numbers match the last 3 of the receiver serial number, it should but some do not due to bolts being mixed at some point. Look at the mum on the receiver and see if it has any strike or punch marks on it, if not then its an untouched mum which is always a sought after thing. The cleaning rod is missing from the rifle. The bayonet appears to be the standard Type 30 bayonet, it should have a manufactures mark on the blade.

Next to the crucifix, the Gott Mit Uns piece, is actually the center of an Imperial German Army belt buckle, from the 1914-1918 First World War. I would guess Grandpa found the buckle somewhere and pried the center out of it for a souvenier.

henny99 · 04-17-2007, 09:39 PM

There is absolutely no historical evidence that the ss ever authorized a deaths head on a Crucifix. There is however an extrodinary amount of evidence to the effect that they would not have.

willyboy · 04-17-2007, 10:30 PM

Serial # is 55419. Yes, you are correct, no anti-air sight. Sorry I'm not very knowledgeable with guns, what is the extractor. On bolt=515. Mum is perfectly intact. I know how it is the sign of the emperor and it was scratched of at the end of the war. The bayonet is a hooked quillion and was made at the same arsenal as the rifle.

Guntoter · 04-18-2007, 10:56 PM

The extractor is the long metal piece that runs down the side of the bolt. It should also have a serial number stamped at the rear of it. It appears the bolt is mismatched to the rifle. Too bad but rather common.

Fishpaw1 · 04-19-2007, 10:44 AM

Im in the antique business,and come across many many crosses just like the one that was posted, with the skull and all. You wouldnt believe how many times ive heard similar stories that the skull means it was a Nazi item. As its been pointed out numerous times here, it has nothing to do with the Nazis. Also, the Nazis werent the most religious people. They used some elements of Christianity, but they made their own "religion" of their ideology. They certainly didnt make special Nazi SS officer crosses.

RylanBrissette · 04-20-2007, 04:30 AM

Yes that is for sure, haha. Hitler was god to the SS, and I doubt hitler would want it any other way. There is a few different types of skull symbols used by the nazi's during the war.. People have to understand the skull and crossbones as a symbol isnt a nazi invention! Pirates used it aswell :-)

willyboy · 11-24-2012, 04:07 PM

It's been well over five years since I first did any research on my grandpa's luger. I'm thankful for all of your help in figuring some things out about this gun. I have never attempted to clean or restore it, but I still wish to. My grandpa passed away about 3 years ago and my grandma is in ailing health now. Selfishly, I hope that the interest I have in this gun would give me some sort of claim to, although that is pure speculation. If I decide to try to restore this gun, I will post updates here.

Thanks again.
WB

11-24-2012, 11:33 PM	#1
hansfischer007 User Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Sunny Tennessee Posts: 233 Thanks: 509 Thanked 96 Times in 48 Posts	SS Crucifix.? I picked up a couple of the same style Crucifix last year......and the Skull & Crossbones at the foot of the Cross......means "victory over death".....has nothing to do with the SS.......these are fairly common......

04-17-2007, 02:40 PM	#3
waltherguy User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: FL Posts: 201 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The Skull and Crossbones is a reference to John's Gospel 18:19. It is found on many vintage Crucifix's from all over the world. Here are links to a couple of exaples similar to yours. http://www.rubylane.com/shops/victor.../04111?gbase=1 http://www.goantiques.com/detail,192...source=VYZ4474 __________________ "In a man to man fight the winner is the one who puts an extra round in his magazine" -Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

04-17-2007, 09:37 PM	#14
Guntoter User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I can help a bit with the rifle. If you could post a close up of the serial number area, that would help more. But with the info you provided, that 24th series Kokura would possibly have been made in early 1944, probably without the monopod although it still used a monopod type rear band. I cannot tell from the photo, but it appears the rear sight is the type without the anti-aircraft fold down wings. Check the bolt and extractor to see if the 3 digit serial numbers match the last 3 of the receiver serial number, it should but some do not due to bolts being mixed at some point. Look at the mum on the receiver and see if it has any strike or punch marks on it, if not then its an untouched mum which is always a sought after thing. The cleaning rod is missing from the rifle. The bayonet appears to be the standard Type 30 bayonet, it should have a manufactures mark on the blade. Next to the crucifix, the Gott Mit Uns piece, is actually the center of an Imperial German Army belt buckle, from the 1914-1918 First World War. I would guess Grandpa found the buckle somewhere and pried the center out of it for a souvenier. __________________ Trust me, I'm with the Government.

04-18-2007, 10:56 PM	#17
Guntoter User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The extractor is the long metal piece that runs down the side of the bolt. It should also have a serial number stamped at the rear of it. It appears the bolt is mismatched to the rifle. Too bad but rather common. __________________ Trust me, I'm with the Government.

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04-17-2007, 02:04 PM	#2
willyboy User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Arkansas Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well why would there be a skull and crossbones on a crucifix? Jus wondering.

11-25-2012, 02:13 PM	#5
willyboy User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Arkansas Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, I believe that is the verse which explains golgotha, the hill where Jesus Christ was crucified. "Place of the Skull" or something like that. The crucifix skull thing is no issue here. And yes, the s-hook is in place, I made sure of that when I reassembled the gun. I am not sure if there is a hold open device that is activated when the magazine is empty.

11-25-2012, 02:27 PM	#7
apis mellifera User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: WV Posts: 150 Thanks: 3 Thanked 24 Times in 8 Posts	That's because the actual reference in John is at 19:17.

04-17-2007, 02:42 PM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Willyboy, Christ was crucified on a hill named Golgatha. That translates to "The place of the skull"; throught time, images of the crucifixin have included skulls and other human remains in the background or foreground. Golgotha was a place of execution, not just for Christ but for anyone the local Roman authorities decided to execute. Bodies were left in the open and animals undoubtedly made meals out of them, leaving bones as remnants. Tom A

04-17-2007, 03:04 PM	#10
willyboy User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Arkansas Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thankx guys.

04-17-2007, 09:22 PM	#12
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Willyboy Ok is the answer

04-17-2007, 09:29 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Will, Yes, you need to remove the grip screw at the bottom of the right grip to lift off, carefully, the wooden grip. If you see the "GS" stramping in the wood on the inside surface, that right grip is one made locally in Indonesia. Removal of the left grip is a bit tricky...as one can break off the sculpted cutout of the wood around the bottom of the thumb safety lever. To do it, remove the left grip screw and while pushing and holding down the magazine release buttom, lift the bottom of the left grip up enough and then slide it down along the grip strap...mostly parallel to the grip strap. If you are too agreesive and jst lift the left grip up of the frame, you could break that little piece of wood along the bottom of the thumb safety lever. If you take the left wooden grip off, let us know what stampings you might see along its interior surface...

04-17-2007, 09:39 PM	#15
henny99 User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	There is absolutely no historical evidence that the ss ever authorized a deaths head on a Crucifix. There is however an extrodinary amount of evidence to the effect that they would not have.

04-17-2007, 10:30 PM	#16
willyboy User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Arkansas Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Serial # is 55419. Yes, you are correct, no anti-air sight. Sorry I'm not very knowledgeable with guns, what is the extractor. On bolt=515. Mum is perfectly intact. I know how it is the sign of the emperor and it was scratched of at the end of the war. The bayonet is a hooked quillion and was made at the same arsenal as the rifle.

04-19-2007, 10:44 AM	#18
Fishpaw1 User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Im in the antique business,and come across many many crosses just like the one that was posted, with the skull and all. You wouldnt believe how many times ive heard similar stories that the skull means it was a Nazi item. As its been pointed out numerous times here, it has nothing to do with the Nazis. Also, the Nazis werent the most religious people. They used some elements of Christianity, but they made their own "religion" of their ideology. They certainly didnt make special Nazi SS officer crosses.

04-20-2007, 04:30 AM	#19
RylanBrissette User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 189 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Yes that is for sure, haha. Hitler was god to the SS, and I doubt hitler would want it any other way. There is a few different types of skull symbols used by the nazi's during the war.. People have to understand the skull and crossbones as a symbol isnt a nazi invention! Pirates used it aswell :-)

11-24-2012, 04:07 PM	#20
willyboy User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Arkansas Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It's been well over five years since I first did any research on my grandpa's luger. I'm thankful for all of your help in figuring some things out about this gun. I have never attempted to clean or restore it, but I still wish to. My grandpa passed away about 3 years ago and my grandma is in ailing health now. Selfishly, I hope that the interest I have in this gun would give me some sort of claim to, although that is pure speculation. If I decide to try to restore this gun, I will post updates here. Thanks again. WB