Byf 41

[Nomadr]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Please provide additional photos in different light of the serial number on the front of the frame. I am sorry to say that based on the photos you have provided so far, that I suspect that this frame has been renumbered at some time in its past.

John. What don't you like? They look good to me.

Bob

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by Nomadr

John. What don't you like? They look good to me.

Bob

The frame appears in the pics to not be dead flush with the front end of the barrel extension. And the flat surface does look a little rough, and this helps reveal that the numbers were stamped after the surface was finish ground. Is the grinding rough enough to make it suspect? The blend into the radius below looks pretty smooth to me, though, which tips the scale back towards original. Grinding to allow re-stamping usually alters the smooth tangential transition of surfaces in this area. I do not have enough experience to make a call on whether the upper/frame offset is big enough to make a difference. I'm curious, too, John!

[John Sabato]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

The frame appears in the pics to not be dead flush with the front end of the barrel extension. And the flat surface does look a little rough, and this helps reveal that the numbers were stamped after the surface was finish ground. Is the grinding rough enough to make it suspect? The blend into the radius below looks pretty smooth to me, though, which tips the scale back towards original. Grinding to allow re-stamping usually alters the smooth tangential transition of surfaces in this area. I do not have enough experience to make a call on whether the upper/frame offset is big enough to make a difference. I'm curious, too, John!

Let me start this by saying this is all speculation, but is based on looking at LOTS of frame serial numbers and slide to frame relationships over the years... this is all just my opinion.

You have hit the largest 'tells' but let me refine them a bit from my perspective:

See the letter "A" in the first photo...The left side of the photo shows some edge damage of the frame. The vertical striations which are indicative of a "grind" probably by a belt sander, are smoothe in appearance along the edge which means to me that the grind took place after this damage occurred.

As you mentioned, the upper receiver protrudes past the front edge of the frame-(See "B")-another indication that the frame was ground. The fact that the protrusion appears to stick out a little further on the right of the photo than it does on the left tells me the grind was done freehand and not in a jig of any kind.

Further indication of freehand grind is the uneven grind line shown below the red line associated with my "C"

In photo number 2, the closeup of the stamped serial number, I have lightened the contrast a little to make the marks indicated by my "D" arrows show up a little better...which look to me like traces of a previous number on this frame. (there is also a mark above the top of the number "1" which I didn't point out when I marked up the photo.

Above the "D", you can see that the front edge of the frame (below the barrel) is normally somewhat sharp, and this one is as well, but the edge also shows some unevenness from the grind.

Lastly, I don't see and stamp halos at all on the frame, so the number would have to have been stamped before the grind, and not after the finishing operation...

Just my $0.02.... spend it wisely...

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

See the letter "A" in the first photo...The left side of the photo shows some edge damage of the frame. The vertical striations which are indicative of a "grind" probably by a belt sander, are smoothe in appearance along the edge which means to me that the grind took place after this damage occurred.

This makes sense. On the other pistol posted, the "turned" corners look better, even with a slight file mark.

In photo number 2, the closeup of the stamped serial number, I have lightened the contrast a little to make the marks indicated by my "D" arrows show up a little better...which look to me like traces of a previous number on this frame. (there is also a mark above the top of the number "1" which I didn't point out when I marked up the photo.

This makes me suspicious, too, though grain of the grinding both starts and stops, and continues thru the numbers. But I see what you've pointed out.

Lastly, I don't see and stamp halos at all on the frame, so the number would have to have been stamped before the grind, and not after the finishing operation...

I see metal displaced by the stamping and not ground off, which makes me want to say ground, then stamped, then blued (re?).

Thanks for sharing, John!