Rare Mauser 714

[Mauser 712]

Hello Alvin,

There is no such Mauser C96 pistol named 'Model 714' with reference to the Stoeger catalogs. The label 'Removable Magazine Model 1930' in the Erickson book is incorrect in my opinion because the side rails are reinforced instead of milled, when the latter existed on the Model 1930. Therefore, it would be better to label this pistol as a 'M1934 Removable Magazine'. I believe that these pistols were only made for the US market since there was some restrictions starting to occur after 1932 regarding the sale of Schnellfeuers.

To determine if it is factory genuine would require a careful internal examination in spite of the earlier/normal trigger and no stock slot - which would be correct characteristics for such a pistol in semi-automatic. Despite having the exterior characteristics of a normal Schnellfeuer, I wonder why the left center panel is not like the right one which would have been normal to produce at the factory?

Back in 1997, I had examined the one in the book which is in Hogan's collection, but I did not have the time to disassemble it; I just took left and right side photos. For your information, removable the magazine is a normal 10-shot magazine.

Best regards,
Albert

[alvin]

Originally Posted by Mauser 712

I wonder why the left center panel is not like the right one which would have been normal to produce at the factory?

I think I have a theory for this.

Say, a customer (e.g. A F Stoeger) ordered a few semi-auto only version of Schnellfeuer as dealer samples, what would Mauser do?

They would not change a lot on their machining setup, that cost too much. They would skip some machining steps. There are some frame cuts on regular Schnellfeuer being functional -- such as grip slot (for attaching stock), hole on the left of the frame (for firing control switch), internal slot (for firing control bar), the machining steps for those functional cuts were simply skipped.

There is another difference. Regular Schnellfeuer has a wide trigger which is like the trigger of Mauser Pocket. It's much wider than 1930 trigger. The trigger opening on this gun was probably made on a 1930 production line -- the opening is narrow to fit the narrow trigger.

External milling change to make left and right panels same? No, because that change that would require change on machining setup. That cannot be done via skipping on Schnellfeuer production line. And that cannot be done on 1930 production line either. So, no.

At the firing control switch hole's position, no one shows a picture of what internal looks like in decades... probably people worried revealing too much would be a problem. But there is a 1930 style internal recess area, big. That's functional -- any sand or dirt sneaking into the steel shell would have a place to stay. Very smart design. But with this recess, if there were a hole being welded, it would be very hard to hide it, due to the internal surface is NOT flat. Creating the pattern nicely mixing into the neighboring area would take considerable amount of effort. But I did not see any sign.

[conehammer]

Originally Posted by alvin

They would not change a lot on their machining setup, that cost too much. They would skip some machining steps. There are some frame cuts on regular Schnellfeuer being functional -- such as grip slot (for attaching stock), hole on the left of the frame (for firing control switch), internal slot (for firing control bar), the machining steps for those functional cuts were simply skipped.

You certainly studied Broomhandles much more than most Alvin but that's quite a statement. We can't know what it would have cost Mauser to make changes to their machining sequence. I can't say I'm intimate with the sort of machining procedures of the period they followed as I've only seen general photos of Mauser's assembly and fitting areas. Jigs/ fixtures/ machining templates could be modified/ cloned with changes if the numbers were deemed worth it.

You've assembled quite a collection by now Alvin, didn't you also add a 6 and 20 shot to your stable? Were you the guy that snagged that beautiful Turkish Contract piece a year or so ago?

My collecting has been dormant for quite some while but I'm thinking of dipping my toes into the pool again. I'm only interested in Broomhandles but I'm not necessarily on a quest for perfection.

Jerry

[alvin]

Originally Posted by conehammer

You've assembled quite a collection by now Alvin, didn't you also add a 6 and 20 shot to your stable? Were you the guy that snagged that beautiful Turkish Contract piece a year or so ago?

Got Joe's 20CH. He had a few 20CHs, but only this one being original. I bet he had another nicer original one, probably sold privately to his friend. 6CH came from a California collector. He violated law and court forced him selling all guns. So I got his 6CH, a very nice original one.

I was not the guy on the Sturgess Turkish though. I handled the gun in the preview, it looks nice. Book value of Turkish in that shape was about $10k, I knew it would not come at $10k, if stretching to $12k, plus BP and tax (I had to pay tax), I would have to pay $15k. That's hard. So my max was $12k and stopped there. But other people pushed it to $27.5k, plus BP that would be more than $30k. Not because I did not like it, but I really could not compete. And, at this price level,,, it does not have matching stock.

Actually, for Turkish CH, it does not have to look that nice. A 40% or higher one will be OK with me. Turkey was a poor country, guns falling into Turkish hands going lower condition was normal. But I have not met one yet. Joe had a poor one sold later on gunbroker.com via 3rd party, but that one had mixed parts, and grip frame was damaged, so I bypassed it. 1000 Turkish were made, its rarity is like 6-shot, Persian, and carbine. Probably fewer survived, but there must be more. Just need to wait an appropriate one.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Mauser 712

I believe that these pistols were only made for the US market since there was some restrictions starting to occur after 1932 regarding the sale of Schnellfeuers.

One of the major importers [Navy Arms, Federal Ordnance, I don't recall who] had a batch of 712 Schnellfeuers but could not legally sell them [BATF vetoed request] so they had a 'C96' (or M30) gripframe made up which could not take 712 full-auto internals and only fire semi-auto. Brand new, good machining, very good finish. Sold them all, with rest of parts sets refinished as well (and modified for semi). I don't recall now if magazines were removable or fixed [internal]. Interesting but 're-manufactured', not restored. Limited collector interest.

[alvin]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Brand new, good machining, very good finish.

Well, probably depends on compare with whom. Neither Navy Arms, nor Federal Ordnance are regular gun makers. I would say, their machining, finish, etc are even less than Norinco's factory. At least, Norinco's labor cost was low, so they could afford spending more hours on their products without any problem. But that's not true for small mills of Navy and Federal, they don't have expertise in gun making domain, and they could not afford many hours on their products either. So, their final products have nothing standing out in terms of machining nor finish IMO. Quality is way lower than Norinco M213 9mm Tokarev.

If it's not for looking, then, it better performs well in range? After all, it's a gun. If it performs, I will still praise it. Nope. I shot one example 9mm in range, it could not even throw out 10 rounds smoothly. For those rounds indeed flied out, I could not find where they went. So, it's still for looking... but really nothing attractive on it to look at.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

Well, probably depends on compare with whom. Neither Navy Arms, nor Federal Ordnance are regular gun makers. I would say, their machining, finish, etc are even less than Norinco's factory.

No, they didn't make them in-house; they farmed out. I don't recall to whom, or how well they performed. They did make several variations; carbine [fixed stock]; removable mag; fixed mag. The article i read was in monthly magazine, not SGN. Pics looked nice.