Tuning for Reliability

[SIGP2101]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,



Unfortunately, few people either know about this,...
Sieger

That is the problem, then they start playing with springs, modifying them, exchanging them, replacing them. Then they sell it to the next person and fiddling continues.

Only way to modify P08 to digest modern ammo would be to some how magically increase overall mass of the breach or move forward the point where rear toggle link links with 'S' link . Moving this point forward by even a fraction of a mm would tremendously decrease cycling rate of toggle train.
Increasing or decreasing spring preload will lead only to premature wear and tear of various parts.

[John Sabato]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

No flaws anywhere to be seen; lock open is sporadic.

With the upper removed, and the sear bar removed does the toggle move smoothly for the full length of its travel? or is there any hesitation or roughness?

Failure to lock open with only one round in the chamber and an empty magazine inserted indicates either a holdopen that has restricted movement (rubbing on the right grip), or that the mainspring force is too heavy. This is the first problem you need to solve before delving into magazine/feeding issues.

1. Check that the magazine button has no rubbing issues at the top of its travel in an empty magazine.

2. Check that the right grip is not preventing the magazine button from moving to the full up position because it is improperly inletted on the inside, or may be slightly oversize on the inside as a bakelite mold error, causing friction and preventing the holdopen from restraining the slide when firing that single round. You can test this by removing the upper and inserting an empty magazine and watching the holdopen. If it hesitates, even a little, it is rubbing the grip. There should be full motion of the holdopen doing this exercise with the right grip removed. The action should be identical with the right grip installed.

3. Install the mainspring from your LP.08 and see how that affects operation. The same results? or not?

4. Obtain an aftermarket mainspring from Wolff that is 16 LBs or less, and start removing approximately a half turn of spring one snip at a time until you are functioning with 115 Winchester White Box. Do this until you achieve lock open 100% of the time.

Anxious to hear how this exercise plays out...

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Failure to lock open with only one round in the chamber and an empty magazine inserted indicates either a holdopen that has restricted movement (rubbing on the right grip), or that the mainspring force is too heavy.

Sporadic failure to lock open with Winchester ammo is not uncommon. I only had 99% lock open when I used Portuguese military grade ammo.

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by kurusu

Sporadic failure to lock open with Winchester ammo is not uncommon. I only had 99% lock open when I used Portuguese military grade ammo.

Portugal being the founding member of NATO, the standing consensus of this forum is to eschew such loads. I am tempted to reinstall the standard recoil spring and give it a go.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

Portugal being the founding member of NATO, the standing consensus of this forum is to eschew such loads. I am tempted to reinstall the standard recoil spring and give it a go.

I agree you should give it a try. It was going to be my next suggestion anyway.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I agree you should give it a try. It was going to be my next suggestion anyway.

Hi,

I don't know what the Europeans are loading as NATO Spec. ammo, but according to our government's official publications on the matter, we are loading a 121 grain bullet to 1,260 fps. (as shot through a pistol)

According to extensive research I have done, in both German commercial and military publications of the period, the original WWII German 9mm Pistol ammo was loaded as follows: 123 grain bullet to 1,076 fps. (as shot through a pistol)

Just do the math. The U.S. NATO Spec. loading is overloaded by approximately 184 fps or 17%. Though this is not a perfect comparison, I think we can all agree that more "energy" is needed to throw approximately the same weight bullet 184 fps faster.

The implied conclusion, from these facts, is that one shouldn't need ammo overloaded by some 17% to get a Luger to function properly (with an original set of springs, in spec., anyway).

Your thoughts?


Sieger

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

I don't know what the Europeans are loading as NATO Spec. ammo, but according to our government's official publications on the matter, we are loading a 121 grain bullet to 1,260 fps. (as shot through a pistol)

Sieger

I don't know what is being made all over Europe as NATO SPEC 9mm.

Portuguese loads (no longer available since the Government shut down the facilities around 2005) used 115 grain bullet at, if memory serves me right, around 1240 1280 fps.

Originally Posted by Sieger

According to extensive research I have done, in both German commercial and military publications of the period, the original WWII German 9mm Pistol ammo was loaded as follows: 123 grain bullet to 1,076 fps. (as shot through a pistol)

Just do the math. The U.S. NATO Spec. loading is overloaded by approximately 184 fps or 17%. Though this is not a perfect comparison, I think we can all agree that more "energy" is needed to throw approximately the same weight bullet 184 fps faster.

The implied conclusion, from these facts, is that one shouldn't need ammo overloaded by some 17% to get a Luger to function properly (with an original set of springs in good shape, anyway).

Your thoughts?


Sieger

I would not shoot 121 grain bullets at 1260 fps from my P08 either.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

Portugal being the founding member of NATO, the standing consensus of this forum is to eschew such loads. I am tempted to reinstall the standard recoil spring and give it a go.

Hi,

I had no idea that Portugal was the founder of NATO, as they didn't even participate in WWII.


Sieger

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

I had no idea that Portugal was the founder of NATO, as they didn't even participate in WWII.


Sieger

Not the founder, but one of the founding members. The expansion of comunism was considered a big threat.

We are getting way off topic.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

Not the founder, but one of the founding members. The expansion of comunism was considered a big threat.

We are getting way off topic.

Hi,

Yes, but I'm not the originator of the comment.


Sieger

[Augsburger]

Thanks for this John. It helped me solve a cycling prob with my 1920 .30 cal commercial.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

That is the problem, then they start playing with springs, modifying them, exchanging them, replacing them. Then they sell it to the next person and fiddling continues.

Only way to modify P08 to digest modern ammo would be to some how magically increase overall mass of the breach or move forward the point where rear toggle link links with 'S' link . Moving this point forward by even a fraction of a mm would tremendously decrease cycling rate of toggle train.
Increasing or decreasing spring preload will lead only to premature wear and tear of various parts.

I beg to differ. Both my P08s ( BYF 41 and a 1915 DWM) work without problems with current ammo ( Winchester White box; Magtech and Geco) and with my reloads with slower powders (VV N340 and Vectan BA9).
I believe they both still have their original springs.

[SIGP2101]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I beg to differ. Both my P08s ( BYF 41 and a 1915 DWM) work without problems with current ammo ( Winchester White box; Magtech and Geco) and with my reloads with slower powders (VV N340 and Vectan BA9).
I believe they both still have their original springs.

I believe you. I had same experience with few P08 myself. Lots of them work flawlessly but topics is about stubborn ones and how to make them work.
Another important aspect is OAL. My experience with WWB is that is not consistent from box to box.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

I believe you. I had same experience with few P08 myself. Lots of them work flawlessly but topics is about stubborn ones and how to make them work.
Another important aspect is OAL. My experience with WWB is that is not consistent from box to box.

What puzzles me the most here is that Michael's P08 should not be a stubborn one. Mismatched p08s acting up is no surprise to me, but a matching Kriegoff should work just fine.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

What puzzles me the most here is that Michael's P08 should not be a stubborn one. Mismatched p08s acting up is no surprise to me, but a matching Kriegoff should work just fine.

Hi,

Yes, but Mike has had some real difficulty in getting his P-08 model Lugers to function reliably. I can't understand it either, as all of my Lugers, after a little study, have worked very reliably; and reliably is defined, by me, as no jams in 1,000 rounds shot.


Sieger

[SIGP2101]

Originally Posted by kurusu

What puzzles me the most here is that Michael's P08 should not be a stubborn one. Mismatched p08s acting up is no surprise to me, but a matching Kriegoff should work just fine.

Why? There is no way anyone can tell if gun has all matching springs. Springs don't come numbered to the gun. It is all in the springs, four springs work together in co-junction to deliver. Even if still have all originals some of them must be tired after all those years in and out of service. Throw in non matching magazine into equation and you get pretty dis-balanced platform to trouble shoot.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

Why? There is no way anyone can tell if gun has all matching springs. Springs don't come numbered to the gun. It is all in the springs, four springs work together in co-junction to deliver. Even if still have all originals some of them must be tired after all those years in and out of service. Throw in non matching magazine into equation and you get pretty dis-balanced platform to trouble shoot.

Hi,

Agreed, but Mike has experienced this problem with several mint models P-08 he owns and over various manufacturers.

Again, it will be both interesting and challenging to discover the true source of the problem.


Sieger

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Again, it will be both interesting and challenging to discover the true source of the problem.

The balance of my life suggests bad luck.

To recap:

1. I doubt that I've been limp-wristing. One of my favorite carry guns is a 3" Manurhin MR73 stuffed with six 158 gr full-tilt .357 Magnum pills. I hold my nines the same way I hold that medium-frame Magnum.
2. I've tried all combinations in the Wolff tuning pack. (Correction: the recoil spring weights are 36, 38, and 40 lbs.) The pistol is like new inside. I've tried fresh MecGar mags tuned by GT and minty Haenel-Schmeisser mags. I find no indication of anything going awry, outside of shooting live ammo. I fire a single shot out of a good Luger with more speed and precision than out of any other modern firearm. It chaps my ass that I cannot follow up in kind.
3. I do well with my LP08 Persian Artillery and a 10" pencil-barreled National Match W+F P06/29. Regrettably, they are ill-suited for defensive carry in virtue of bulk and rarity. A standard W+F 06/29, and a similarly sized 1906 Portuguese Mauser, perform nearly as well, but their defensive use is limited by the selection of 7.65mm Para ammo. I'm waiting on a 6" Werle-tuned Mauser P08 in 9mm Para without getting my hopes up.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I beg to differ. Both my P08s ( BYF 41 and a 1915 DWM) work without problems with current ammo ( Winchester White box; Magtech and Geco) and with my reloads with slower powders (VV N340 and Vectan BA9).
I believe they both still have their original springs.

Hi,

For a perfect fast powder target load, that works every time, try the following:

WW Commercial Cases
Remington 1 1/2 Primers
Hornady 124 gr FMJRN
Bullseye 3.7 grains
Cartridge Overall Length 1.173 inches

This is a fantastic target load, but it is a light one, less than 1,000 fps. On normal occasions, with hand held over a sandbag, up to seven have touched on a 25 yard target.

If you HAVE TO shoot fast powder, this load is an excellent one to use. Higher powder charges with this powder will cause both wider groups and cause jams.

The Winchester White Box, for me anyway, is not accurate in a Luger, as it throws bullets all over the paper at 25 yards, whereas, my carefully crafted handloads will put all eight in the 10 ring at 25 yards. Please search this section for a full listing of my most accurate handloads, if you like.

Just some of my experience with fast powders in a Luger.


Sieger

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

For a perfect fast powder target load, that works every time, try the following:

WW Commercial Cases
Remington 1 1/2 Primers
Hornady 124 gr FMJRN
Bullseye 3.7 grains
Cartridge Overall Length 1.173 inches

This is a fantastic target load, but it is a light one, less than 1,000 fps. On normal occasions, with hand held over a sandbag, up to seven have touched on a 25 yard target.
Sieger

I avoid reloading with fast powders. Exception .32 wadcutter

Originally Posted by Sieger

The Winchester White Box, for me anyway, is not accurate in a Luger, as it throws bullets all over the paper at 25 yards, where was, my carefully crafted handloads will put all eight in the 10 ring at 25 yards. Please search this section for a full listing of my most accurate handloads, if you like.

Just some of my experience with fast powders in a Luger.


Sieger

There's a trick to WWBox. You have to sort them out by weight.
Proof. Competition target 25 meters one hand shooting
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