Lets talk about flat springs!

G.T. · 11-03-2020, 06:59 PM

Hi to all! In my adventures repairing Lugers, I very seldom encounter 1900's or any Luger with a flat main spring. They are a bit scarce as George Luger was quick to find out that this was going the wrong way, and switched to coil mainsprings shortly there after? But now and then I need to repair or restore a flat mainspring equipped Luger, and it would seem that the flat springs are pretty scarce items. So, my first question before the membership is, just how many different strengths of flat mainsprings were factory made?
I'm pretty sure the 1900 would be the weakest, but after that, were the .30 carbines and 9MM Lugers equipped with the same spring? Does anyone have any experience with them that they can clear up some of the above questions? Best to all, til....lat'r.....GT...

Ron Wood · 11-03-2020, 07:09 PM

One leaf (the long one with the hook on the end) of the compound 9mm spring was 50% thicker than the regular 7.65mm spring, which has leaves of equal thickness. The carbine has the same spring as the other 7.65mm 1900 Lugers, but had a helper spring in the forestock to assist in bringing the action back into battery.
Ron

Fla.Mallard · 11-03-2020, 09:01 PM

My 1902 Carbine has two flat springs side by side. It takes a stout load for it to function properly. I never paid much attention to the forestock.

spangy · 11-03-2020, 09:04 PM

This is off topic and I'm sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine .. being of German, Austrian heritage.

Luger's first name is not George but Georg ... pronounced 'Gee,org or G,org.
https://www.germannames.de/wiki/Georg
https://forvo.com/word/georg/

Georg Johann Luger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Luger

Of course it's ok to call him George if you wish ... millions do ... but doesn't Georg sound better ??
I sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone as it is not my intent ... what I truly love about lugerforum is its vast information and learning database.

I love and respect everyone here.

sheepherder · 11-03-2020, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spangy

This is off topic and I'm sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine .. being of German, Austrian heritage...

Mine, too.

DonVoigt · 11-03-2020, 11:09 PM

I wrote a post on these springs -somewhere and sometime ago- now I can't find it.

The Thickness of the flat springs governs the "strength".
The drawing in G&S shows the springs had two leaves of 0.88mm(this is hard to read it may in fact be 0.83mm!);
I believe these to be an interim specification.
I have measured many springs and find them from 0.7 to 0.9 with a max of 1.0 mm.

The springs were gradually "improved" for more certain operation.

As Ron wrote, the two leaves of the early springs were improved by changing one of these to a thicker spring.

I've satisfied myself that the original springs were 0.7 to 0.75 mm thick, they do taper slightly from top to bottom. Thus the 9mm spring would become one 0.7-75mm spring plus one of 0.95 to 1.0mm thickness.

I have rarely found springs with two 0.95 mm leaves.

Of course replacement and reproduction springs have been made now for over 100 years, and any measurements made may be confused by not knowing if a spring is original DWM mfg or from some other maker.

These leaf springs also suffer from fatigue, and some thicker leaved springs are actually by now weaker than newer or less used 0.7mm double springs.

Most recently, when my spring supply was quite low and I only had weak leaf mainsprings, I added a third spring leaf between the two "normal" leaves, creating a three leaf "reinforced" spring.
The third spring was from a spring with only one leaf left, the other broken before I obtained it.
This agglomeration works in my shooter 1900.

The 1902 carbine has the auxiliary spring in the forearm to assist in closing the toggle, as the long barrel and forearm weight creates too much inertia for the mainspring in the grip to close it
reliably.

Update:
I spent some time "finding" the pages in the Red Volumes of Pistole Parabellum by G&S, I sure wish those 3 volumes had a decent index!

See the spring story starting on p-221,222, and ref. carbine on 243.

Seems first springs had two leaves of 0.73mm, increased to two of 0.80, and then two of 0.85.
There are then springs noted that have one thicker leaf, but tapered from a thinner top to thicker at the bottom, these were 0.75->1.15mm and 0.85->1.15mm; these thicker tapered springs were combined with a second spring of either 0.75mm or 0.85mm.

So- how many spring varieties were made by DWM- at least 5!

Now you know more about leaf springs than anyone thought possible.

Ron Wood · 11-04-2020, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spangy

This is off topic and I'm sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine .. being of German, Austrian heritage.

Luger's first name is not George but Georg ... pronounced 'Gee,org or G,org.
https://www.germannames.de/wiki/Georg
https://forvo.com/word/georg/

Georg Johann Luger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Luger

Of course it's ok to call him George if you wish ... millions do ... but doesn't Georg sound better ??
I sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone as it is not my intent ... what I truly love about lugerforum is its vast information and learning database.

I love and respect everyone here.

I believe it should be pronounced Gā-org (Gay-org, "long a" in English)
Ron

DonVoigt · 11-04-2020, 12:55 AM

I'm with Ron,
it is Gay-org.

Added G&S reference pages to my above thickness post.

spangy · 11-04-2020, 09:39 AM

It was never my intent to 'hi-jack G.T.'s important & cool thread.

Given the fuzzy definition of what constitutes a dialect, it's hard to say how many German dialects there are in total. But estimates usually range from 50 to 250, meaning that this list only scratches the surface of the several rich dialects that you'll find in the German language.
https://i.imgur.com/siYHY5v.png

Pronunciation: GEE-org - in German the E is soft as in Géorg
IPA: /ˈɡeː.ɔrk/, [-ɔʁk], [-ɔɐ̯k], [-ɔ(ː)k]
IPA: /ˈɡeː.ɔrç/, [-ɔʁç], [-ɔɐ̯ç], [-ɔ(ː)ç], [-ɔʏ̯ç] (northern and central Germany; now chiefly colloquial)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e/De-Georg.ogg

Pronunciation: GAY-org - this is the English translation of GEE-org
org - pronounced as 'org' in 'organization'
https://pronouncenames.com/search?name=georg

In the Middle Ages, a standardized version of the German language did not exist. Instead, there were a smattering of individual Germanic dialects, each of which belonged to a particular tribe or village. Given that Germany did not unify as a country until 1871, a standard variety of the German language was introduced relatively late in the history of the language. As such, there are still strong regional differences among different dialects. Though there are numerous individual dialects throughout Germany, here are some of the most important dialect groups.

1. High German/Hochdeutsch
2. Bavarian-Austrian aka Austro-Bavarian - where Georg Johann Luger was from.
3. Middle German/Mitteldeutsch
4. Low German/Plattdeutsch
5. Frisian
6. Alemannic

Bottom line is no matter which German dialect you choose Georg is not pronounced George.
The reason I am called 'Spangy' by my friends is because NO ONE could pronounce my German last name - Spangenberg.
This is where my sensitivity to names came from. Names are important.

Doubs · 11-04-2020, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spangy

The reason I am called 'Spangy' by my friends is because NO ONE could pronounce my German last name - Spangenberg

Honestly, I don't believe that your family name is difficult at all.

Where I grew up, German surnames were more common than English surnames; Stup, Shuff, Thomas, Zimmerman, Remsberg and Ramsberg (both from the original Riemensperger), Vogel, Houck and on and on. My own ancestors include Kessler and Walter.

From a local family graveyard:

spangy · 11-04-2020, 03:13 PM

WOW ... as far back as 1721. ! ! !
I bet you would get my name right too Doubs.

And where I grew up Doubs, if you were German ... you were a Nazi.
I guess it depends where and when you grew up ... the immediate post WWII years had their challenges for German immigrants/refugees in North America that's for sure.
Yet another one of my pet peeves.
I wish I had grown up in Germany even though I love my country Canada.
And to me a Luger is not a 'Nazi gun' but a brilliant work of art and engineering from a German inventor.
I blame Hollywood for a lot of this stereotyping.

Thanks my friend

G.T. · 11-05-2020, 12:25 PM

Hi to all, in reading Rons and Dons posts it would seem that a spring with equal thickness thin (.75 to .85) leafs, (measured at the same spot every time) would be for the 1900 .30 as well as the 02 .30 carbines with the forearm assist spring?
Then it gets kind a blurry as to application?....

.... I would think any additional thickness would be for another application, 9mm and such, and at that time probably far less common. As Don suggests, they could have increased the leaf thickness on both leaves a little and made a "catch all" spring that crossed over both ways?... any more thoughts and real time measurements as to application?

.... best, til....lat'r.....GT

11-03-2020, 06:59 PM	#1
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	Lets talk about flat springs! Hi to all! In my adventures repairing Lugers, I very seldom encounter 1900's or any Luger with a flat main spring. They are a bit scarce as George Luger was quick to find out that this was going the wrong way, and switched to coil mainsprings shortly there after? But now and then I need to repair or restore a flat mainspring equipped Luger, and it would seem that the flat springs are pretty scarce items. So, my first question before the membership is, just how many different strengths of flat mainsprings were factory made? I'm pretty sure the 1900 would be the weakest, but after that, were the .30 carbines and 9MM Lugers equipped with the same spring? Does anyone have any experience with them that they can clear up some of the above questions? Best to all, til....lat'r.....GT...

11-03-2020, 07:09 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	One leaf (the long one with the hook on the end) of the compound 9mm spring was 50% thicker than the regular 7.65mm spring, which has leaves of equal thickness. The carbine has the same spring as the other 7.65mm 1900 Lugers, but had a helper spring in the forestock to assist in bringing the action back into battery. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-03-2020, 11:09 PM	#6
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I wrote a post on these springs -somewhere and sometime ago- now I can't find it. The Thickness of the flat springs governs the "strength". The drawing in G&S shows the springs had two leaves of 0.88mm(this is hard to read it may in fact be 0.83mm!); I believe these to be an interim specification. I have measured many springs and find them from 0.7 to 0.9 with a max of 1.0 mm. The springs were gradually "improved" for more certain operation. As Ron wrote, the two leaves of the early springs were improved by changing one of these to a thicker spring. I've satisfied myself that the original springs were 0.7 to 0.75 mm thick, they do taper slightly from top to bottom. Thus the 9mm spring would become one 0.7-75mm spring plus one of 0.95 to 1.0mm thickness. I have rarely found springs with two 0.95 mm leaves. Of course replacement and reproduction springs have been made now for over 100 years, and any measurements made may be confused by not knowing if a spring is original DWM mfg or from some other maker. These leaf springs also suffer from fatigue, and some thicker leaved springs are actually by now weaker than newer or less used 0.7mm double springs. Most recently, when my spring supply was quite low and I only had weak leaf mainsprings, I added a third spring leaf between the two "normal" leaves, creating a three leaf "reinforced" spring. The third spring was from a spring with only one leaf left, the other broken before I obtained it. This agglomeration works in my shooter 1900. The 1902 carbine has the auxiliary spring in the forearm to assist in closing the toggle, as the long barrel and forearm weight creates too much inertia for the mainspring in the grip to close it reliably. Update: I spent some time "finding" the pages in the Red Volumes of Pistole Parabellum by G&S, I sure wish those 3 volumes had a decent index! See the spring story starting on p-221,222, and ref. carbine on 243. Seems first springs had two leaves of 0.73mm, increased to two of 0.80, and then two of 0.85. There are then springs noted that have one thicker leaf, but tapered from a thinner top to thicker at the bottom, these were 0.75->1.15mm and 0.85->1.15mm; these thicker tapered springs were combined with a second spring of either 0.75mm or 0.85mm. So- how many spring varieties were made by DWM- at least 5! Now you know more about leaf springs than anyone thought possible. Attached Thumbnails __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

11-04-2020, 12:55 AM	#8
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I'm with Ron, it is Gay-org. Added G&S reference pages to my above thickness post. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

11-05-2020, 12:25 PM	#12
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	if that's so, then this must be so! Hi to all, in reading Rons and Dons posts it would seem that a spring with equal thickness thin (.75 to .85) leafs, (measured at the same spot every time) would be for the 1900 .30 as well as the 02 .30 carbines with the forearm assist spring? Then it gets kind a blurry as to application?........ I would think any additional thickness would be for another application, 9mm and such, and at that time probably far less common. As Don suggests, they could have increased the leaf thickness on both leaves a little and made a "catch all" spring that crossed over both ways?... any more thoughts and real time measurements as to application? .... best, til....lat'r.....GT

11-03-2020, 09:01 PM	#3
Fla.Mallard User Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 99 Thanks: 244 Thanked 95 Times in 37 Posts	My 1902 Carbine has two flat springs side by side. It takes a stout load for it to function properly. I never paid much attention to the forestock.

11-03-2020, 09:04 PM	#4
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	This is off topic and I'm sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine .. being of German, Austrian heritage. Luger's first name is not George but Georg ... pronounced 'Gee,org or G,org. https://www.germannames.de/wiki/Georg https://forvo.com/word/georg/ Georg Johann Luger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Luger Of course it's ok to call him George if you wish ... millions do ... but doesn't Georg sound better ?? I sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone as it is not my intent ... what I truly love about lugerforum is its vast information and learning database. I love and respect everyone here.

11-04-2020, 09:39 AM	#9
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	It was never my intent to 'hi-jack G.T.'s important & cool thread. Given the fuzzy definition of what constitutes a dialect, it's hard to say how many German dialects there are in total. But estimates usually range from 50 to 250, meaning that this list only scratches the surface of the several rich dialects that you'll find in the German language. https://i.imgur.com/siYHY5v.png Pronunciation: GEE-org - in German the E is soft as in Géorg IPA: /ˈɡeː.ɔrk/, [-ɔʁk], [-ɔɐ̯k], [-ɔ(ː)k] IPA: /ˈɡeː.ɔrç/, [-ɔʁç], [-ɔɐ̯ç], [-ɔ(ː)ç], [-ɔʏ̯ç] (northern and central Germany; now chiefly colloquial) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e/De-Georg.ogg Pronunciation: GAY-org - this is the English translation of GEE-org org - pronounced as 'org' in 'organization' https://pronouncenames.com/search?name=georg In the Middle Ages, a standardized version of the German language did not exist. Instead, there were a smattering of individual Germanic dialects, each of which belonged to a particular tribe or village. Given that Germany did not unify as a country until 1871, a standard variety of the German language was introduced relatively late in the history of the language. As such, there are still strong regional differences among different dialects. Though there are numerous individual dialects throughout Germany, here are some of the most important dialect groups. 1. High German/Hochdeutsch 2. Bavarian-Austrian aka Austro-Bavarian - where Georg Johann Luger was from. 3. Middle German/Mitteldeutsch 4. Low German/Plattdeutsch 5. Frisian 6. Alemannic Bottom line is no matter which German dialect you choose Georg is not pronounced George. The reason I am called 'Spangy' by my friends is because NO ONE could pronounce my German last name - Spangenberg. This is where my sensitivity to names came from. Names are important.

11-04-2020, 03:13 PM	#11
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	WOW ... as far back as 1721. ! ! ! I bet you would get my name right too Doubs. And where I grew up Doubs, if you were German ... you were a Nazi. I guess it depends where and when you grew up ... the immediate post WWII years had their challenges for German immigrants/refugees in North America that's for sure. Yet another one of my pet peeves. I wish I had grown up in Germany even though I love my country Canada. And to me a Luger is not a 'Nazi gun' but a brilliant work of art and engineering from a German inventor. I blame Hollywood for a lot of this stereotyping. Thanks my friend