Dad's Luger

rpmerrill · 01-03-2012, 05:44 PM

New to the forum. Just wandering around looking for more info on Dad's gun. I found a post that detailed how to take good photos. I'm amazed that my crappy little camera did such a good job.

byf 42, #1019 script "l"

Briefly what can you tell me about my gun?
In my retirement I am planning to learn more about it and a P-38 also brought home by Dad.

Dad was in the Rangers, 2nd Batallion from 1942, to UK, to Normandy, to VE Day in Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. Silver Star, 2 Bronze Stars and 3 Purple Hearts. At one point in March of '45, he was wounded/injured and temporarily blinded. His men took him forward to a house basement and left him there. (It was a planned forward aid station.) His rifle wasn't much good to him down there and one of the guys gave him this Luger. He took it with him back to the hospital (almost shot a German POW when the ambulance arrived and he heard orders shouted in German). He's had it ever since. I don't believe it has ever been fired back home in the States. I have his permission papers from late '45 when he sailed back home. (Also the papers for the P-38. Not sure where he got it. He was in the Occupational Government for 6 months after VE day.) All matching numbers and in very nice shape. No numbers at all on the clip however. I plan to fire both guns soon and have been advised by a local gunsmith that they are quite fire-able. I doubt that either gun is a high value collectible other than a high sentimental value.

In spite of it's nice condition, it was in a trunk in the unheated/uncooled attic for 40+ of the last 60 years. In the last 5 years since Dad died, I have kept it clean and oiled.
Also have Lexol'd the holster. Marked CCW and 1942 and Eagle with WBA250 on the back. No takedown tool.

All comments and advice are welcome.

I'll probably post similar stuff on the P-38 at that Forum. I'm sure there are many people here who have P38's as well?

rpmerrill · 01-03-2012, 05:50 PM

Just a couple more photos.
Hope I didn't violate too many posting rules.

alanint · 01-03-2012, 06:05 PM

Beautiful gun and great story! I wonder why the side of the receiver ear looks so battered when the balance of the gun is in great shape?

BTW, don't use Lexol on Luger holsters. It weakens the leather fibers and contributes to an early breakdown of the leather. Use Conollys or similar high grade leather care product.

spartacus38 · 01-03-2012, 06:13 PM

Looks like a very nice 1942 BYF Luger and Holster.
Worth today approx. $1800.I would not shoot it.
If you must shoot it use Winchester white box 115 grain FMJ,
available at Walmart.

rpmerrill · 01-03-2012, 06:24 PM

You mean this? I've been thinking machining marks?

Edward Tinker · 01-03-2012, 06:45 PM

Welcome to the forum, I am finishing vol III of Veteran Bring Backs, would love to include your dads story on these two guns, I give full credit to the original owner and family.

Shoot me an email with any high rez pictures, any other provenance etc to ed_tinker@hotmail.com if interested.

Ed

DavidJayUden · 01-03-2012, 06:47 PM

" I wonder why the side of the receiver ear looks so battered when the balance of the gun is in great shape?"

I'm not seeing the damage, other than the bluing loss up the left side shown in the photo of the safety lever numbers. Or the bluing loss on the left side in the picture of the rear toggle pin numbers. But nothing that appears to be battered. (At least not battered like we sometimes see...)
dju

Mike Z · 01-03-2012, 07:35 PM

Awesome Condition byf 42. Great photos.
Mike Z.

Railsplitter · 01-03-2012, 07:53 PM

Excellent piece !! Thanks for the photos and the story.

mrerick · 01-03-2012, 09:35 PM

Those marks on the rear right "ear" of the receiver are most likely machining marks. Your pistol was made in 1942, and toward the last of the Lugers made by Mauser. At this point, the factory must have been pushing out as many as they could, and the inspectors might have been less discerning... The sharpness of those marks (and other edges) help confirm that it was not refinished...

The other wear marks on the front edge of the left ear are interesting, especially when seen with the imbalance of wear in the two marks on the back of the receiver. It looks like the toggle really dug into the receiver ear. Something appears imbalanced.

One of the more capable Luger gunsmiths might be able to help understand why that occurred. It would be good to closely inspect everything about the receiver and toggle assembly fit.

Marc

minigun · 01-03-2012, 10:17 PM

Beautiful gun. You are risking a lot by firing it though. Especially on the grips. They may crack and break as time may have aged them and made them a tad more brittle than when it was in WWII. This one looks pretty nice and worth a little bit-plus the history of it. If one part breaks, you risk reducing the gun to "shooter status" (no longer collectible).

alanint · 01-03-2012, 11:02 PM

Hi all...
I'm talking about the photo submitted that shows the matching number on the safety lever..look at the excessive wear on the inner receiver ear. The balance of the pistol's finish does not justify this find of finish wear.

What happened.....I wondr?

rpmerrill · 01-04-2012, 07:25 AM

The front face of both ears have the same wear. Also the "knuckles" have matching wear on the edges where they impact the ears as they recoil and kick up. Like I said, I don't think the gun has been fired since '45. As a kid, I would sneak up into the attic and get it out and mess with it. So, it wasn't totally neglected. Surprisingly it isn't covered with fingerprints.

If the grips are the biggest issue are aftermarket grips available to use for shooting, leaving the original grips for show?

DavidJayUden · 01-04-2012, 08:03 AM

Grips are not the only issue. Extractor is an issue as well as other small parts, and I have even managed to break a barrel extension.
But I understand your desire to shoot the old girl. Understand the risks and proceed with caution. And give us a post range report.
dju

mrerick · 01-04-2012, 10:21 AM

Hi Rich,

Should any of the original numbered parts be damaged, the value of your Luger to a collector will drop considerably and the financial value to about $900-$1000. It would be much better to get a second mis-matched "shooter". They can be had for $600-$1000.

It is not particularly common to break parts, it happens regularly. You'll find reports on this forum with some very sad owners. If you do decide to shoot it, use 115gn standard velocity ammo. Something like Winchester's white box generic ammo. Don't use high velocity "Nato" strength loads or old SMG ammo.

You have a rather collectable Luger and holster right now. Is the little loading key in the flap inside your holster? Is that WaA135 marked too? The tool is worth $75. Is it a 1942 marked holster (on the back)? If so, the original holster itself is worth $250 or so. BTW, don't store the Luger inside the holster. The residual chemicals from the tanning process can corrode the pistol's finish.

- - - - - - -

The thing that I found odd about the wear pattern was how the rear of the receiver in your 6th picture showed the two wear areas that were imbalanced.

Marc

John Sabato · 01-04-2012, 10:50 AM

Regarding the "ear" damage from pounding of the toggles. I would venture an OPINION that the gun was fired using HOT submachinegun ammo early after it's capture, or shortly after it's entry to the USA while being demonstrated to fascinated eyes as a war trophy.

At the time, as long as the ammo was a good "fit" the original owner would have had no reason to think it wasn't appropriate to use whatever 9mm was available at cheap prices. Other than the "fair wear and tear" on the ears, this gun is in excellent shape and is certainly collectible...IMHO.

rpmerrill · 01-04-2012, 12:33 PM

Nope, I don't have the tool from the holster. My holster looks like it has never been there. the flap and the pouch lay totally flat. Yup, I am aware of the leather/gun problems and the gun has never spent more than a few minutes in this holster. (At least in it's modern history... after 1950.) Yes, it is marked 1942 and CWW and WaA250 on the back.

Since this gun was given to my Dad in the "fog of war", we have no idea who gave it to him and how much shooting they had done before (or after) he got it. I'm 98% sure there was no shooting after Dad got home and very little "war trophy" showing off. That wasn't Dad's way. After the war he kind of gave up on shooting and camping out and stuff like that. (And eating Spam.) I used to shoot in a gun club a few years ago and as a surprise, I borrowed an M1 ant took Dad to the range as a surprise. He took about 5 shots and had enough. Had more fun doing a take-down and re-assemble. Aside from taking me to see "The Longest Day" he never really talked about this stuff until we went to France for the 40th Anniv. of D Day with Reagan.
He'd probably be upset with me for discussing this on the web.

I was just going to repost photo number 6 to see if this wear generated more comments. Maybe that's what everyone has been talking about????

Thanks to all for the comments.

rpmerrill · 01-09-2012, 08:21 PM

How about this? I forgot to post this.

zombeer · 01-10-2012, 12:41 AM

Beautiful gun! Thanks for posting pics of it AND the certificate!

Graf Spee · 04-13-2015, 01:12 PM

I read these posts, and hung on every word you mention of your father.
Sir, my hat is off to him.
My father was in 3rd Army, yes Patton. Came home like your Father did, queit and didnt talk.
I'm thankful for that generation for many things.

01-03-2012, 05:50 PM	#2
rpmerrill User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 9 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 4 Posts	Just a couple more photos. Hope I didn't violate too many posting rules. Attached Thumbnails

01-03-2012, 06:24 PM	#5
rpmerrill User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 9 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 4 Posts	You mean this? I've been thinking machining marks? Attached Thumbnails

01-03-2012, 06:45 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Welcome to the forum, I am finishing vol III of Veteran Bring Backs, would love to include your dads story on these two guns, I give full credit to the original owner and family. Shoot me an email with any high rez pictures, any other provenance etc to ed_tinker@hotmail.com if interested. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-04-2012, 10:21 AM	#15
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Hi Rich, Should any of the original numbered parts be damaged, the value of your Luger to a collector will drop considerably and the financial value to about $900-$1000. It would be much better to get a second mis-matched "shooter". They can be had for $600-$1000. It is not particularly common to break parts, it happens regularly. You'll find reports on this forum with some very sad owners. If you do decide to shoot it, use 115gn standard velocity ammo. Something like Winchester's white box generic ammo. Don't use high velocity "Nato" strength loads or old SMG ammo. You have a rather collectable Luger and holster right now. Is the little loading key in the flap inside your holster? Is that WaA135 marked too? The tool is worth $75. Is it a 1942 marked holster (on the back)? If so, the original holster itself is worth $250 or so. BTW, don't store the Luger inside the holster. The residual chemicals from the tanning process can corrode the pistol's finish. - - - - - - - The thing that I found odd about the wear pattern was how the rear of the receiver in your 6th picture showed the two wear areas that were imbalanced. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-04-2012, 10:50 AM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Regarding the "ear" damage from pounding of the toggles. I would venture an OPINION that the gun was fired using HOT submachinegun ammo early after it's capture, or shortly after it's entry to the USA while being demonstrated to fascinated eyes as a war trophy. At the time, as long as the ammo was a good "fit" the original owner would have had no reason to think it wasn't appropriate to use whatever 9mm was available at cheap prices. Other than the "fair wear and tear" on the ears, this gun is in excellent shape and is certainly collectible...IMHO. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-03-2012, 05:44 PM	#1
rpmerrill User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 9 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 4 Posts	Dad's Luger New to the forum. Just wandering around looking for more info on Dad's gun. I found a post that detailed how to take good photos. I'm amazed that my crappy little camera did such a good job. byf 42, #1019 script "l" Briefly what can you tell me about my gun? In my retirement I am planning to learn more about it and a P-38 also brought home by Dad. Dad was in the Rangers, 2nd Batallion from 1942, to UK, to Normandy, to VE Day in Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. Silver Star, 2 Bronze Stars and 3 Purple Hearts. At one point in March of '45, he was wounded/injured and temporarily blinded. His men took him forward to a house basement and left him there. (It was a planned forward aid station.) His rifle wasn't much good to him down there and one of the guys gave him this Luger. He took it with him back to the hospital (almost shot a German POW when the ambulance arrived and he heard orders shouted in German). He's had it ever since. I don't believe it has ever been fired back home in the States. I have his permission papers from late '45 when he sailed back home. (Also the papers for the P-38. Not sure where he got it. He was in the Occupational Government for 6 months after VE day.) All matching numbers and in very nice shape. No numbers at all on the clip however. I plan to fire both guns soon and have been advised by a local gunsmith that they are quite fire-able. I doubt that either gun is a high value collectible other than a high sentimental value. In spite of it's nice condition, it was in a trunk in the unheated/uncooled attic for 40+ of the last 60 years. In the last 5 years since Dad died, I have kept it clean and oiled. Also have Lexol'd the holster. Marked CCW and 1942 and Eagle with WBA250 on the back. No takedown tool. All comments and advice are welcome. I'll probably post similar stuff on the P-38 at that Forum. I'm sure there are many people here who have P38's as well? Attached Thumbnails

01-03-2012, 06:05 PM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Beautiful gun and great story! I wonder why the side of the receiver ear looks so battered when the balance of the gun is in great shape? BTW, don't use Lexol on Luger holsters. It weakens the leather fibers and contributes to an early breakdown of the leather. Use Conollys or similar high grade leather care product.

01-03-2012, 06:13 PM	#4
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	Looks like a very nice 1942 BYF Luger and Holster. Worth today approx. $1800.I would not shoot it. If you must shoot it use Winchester white box 115 grain FMJ, available at Walmart.

01-03-2012, 06:47 PM	#7
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	" I wonder why the side of the receiver ear looks so battered when the balance of the gun is in great shape?" I'm not seeing the damage, other than the bluing loss up the left side shown in the photo of the safety lever numbers. Or the bluing loss on the left side in the picture of the rear toggle pin numbers. But nothing that appears to be battered. (At least not battered like we sometimes see...) dju

01-03-2012, 07:35 PM	#8
Mike Z User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 180 Thanks: 51 Thanked 79 Times in 39 Posts	Awesome Condition byf 42. Great photos. Mike Z.

01-03-2012, 07:53 PM	#9
Railsplitter User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	Excellent piece !! Thanks for the photos and the story.

01-03-2012, 09:35 PM	#10
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Those marks on the rear right "ear" of the receiver are most likely machining marks. Your pistol was made in 1942, and toward the last of the Lugers made by Mauser. At this point, the factory must have been pushing out as many as they could, and the inspectors might have been less discerning... The sharpness of those marks (and other edges) help confirm that it was not refinished... The other wear marks on the front edge of the left ear are interesting, especially when seen with the imbalance of wear in the two marks on the back of the receiver. It looks like the toggle really dug into the receiver ear. Something appears imbalanced. One of the more capable Luger gunsmiths might be able to help understand why that occurred. It would be good to closely inspect everything about the receiver and toggle assembly fit. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-03-2012, 10:17 PM	#11
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 15 Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts	Beautiful gun. You are risking a lot by firing it though. Especially on the grips. They may crack and break as time may have aged them and made them a tad more brittle than when it was in WWII. This one looks pretty nice and worth a little bit-plus the history of it. If one part breaks, you risk reducing the gun to "shooter status" (no longer collectible).

01-03-2012, 11:02 PM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Hi all... I'm talking about the photo submitted that shows the matching number on the safety lever..look at the excessive wear on the inner receiver ear. The balance of the pistol's finish does not justify this find of finish wear. What happened.....I wondr?

01-04-2012, 07:25 AM	#13
rpmerrill User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 9 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 4 Posts	The front face of both ears have the same wear. Also the "knuckles" have matching wear on the edges where they impact the ears as they recoil and kick up. Like I said, I don't think the gun has been fired since '45. As a kid, I would sneak up into the attic and get it out and mess with it. So, it wasn't totally neglected. Surprisingly it isn't covered with fingerprints. If the grips are the biggest issue are aftermarket grips available to use for shooting, leaving the original grips for show?

01-04-2012, 08:03 AM	#14
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Grips are not the only issue. Extractor is an issue as well as other small parts, and I have even managed to break a barrel extension. But I understand your desire to shoot the old girl. Understand the risks and proceed with caution. And give us a post range report. dju

01-04-2012, 12:33 PM	#17
rpmerrill User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 9 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 4 Posts	Nope, I don't have the tool from the holster. My holster looks like it has never been there. the flap and the pouch lay totally flat. Yup, I am aware of the leather/gun problems and the gun has never spent more than a few minutes in this holster. (At least in it's modern history... after 1950.) Yes, it is marked 1942 and CWW and WaA250 on the back. Since this gun was given to my Dad in the "fog of war", we have no idea who gave it to him and how much shooting they had done before (or after) he got it. I'm 98% sure there was no shooting after Dad got home and very little "war trophy" showing off. That wasn't Dad's way. After the war he kind of gave up on shooting and camping out and stuff like that. (And eating Spam.) I used to shoot in a gun club a few years ago and as a surprise, I borrowed an M1 ant took Dad to the range as a surprise. He took about 5 shots and had enough. Had more fun doing a take-down and re-assemble. Aside from taking me to see "The Longest Day" he never really talked about this stuff until we went to France for the 40th Anniv. of D Day with Reagan. He'd probably be upset with me for discussing this on the web. I was just going to repost photo number 6 to see if this wear generated more comments. Maybe that's what everyone has been talking about???? Thanks to all for the comments. Attached Thumbnails

01-09-2012, 08:21 PM	#18
rpmerrill User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 9 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 4 Posts	How about this? I forgot to post this. Attached Thumbnails

01-10-2012, 12:41 AM	#19
zombeer User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 36 Thanks: 16 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Beautiful gun! Thanks for posting pics of it AND the certificate! __________________ Illegitimis nil carborundum

04-13-2015, 01:12 PM	#20
Graf Spee User Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: North Dakota Posts: 9 Thanks: 14 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	I read these posts, and hung on every word you mention of your father. Sir, my hat is off to him. My father was in 3rd Army, yes Patton. Came home like your Father did, queit and didnt talk. I'm thankful for that generation for many things.