Late Mauser small parts bluing - Page 2

Norme · 03-20-2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Souldn't the sideplate trigger lever and pin be in the white on an original blued Mauser?

Hi Jerry, Here's a sideplate on a 42 byf. I'm reserving judgement pending better photos. Best regards, Norm

alvin · 03-20-2012, 03:47 PM

How is the muzzle? I guess Mauser Luger's muzzle is like their Broom, in white. And a new gun like this, the muzzle should still have fine machining circles visible....

mrerick · 03-20-2012, 03:56 PM

Hi, I'm attaching several new photos of Mauser "42" Banner 715g...

In fact, there are several small parts that should be in the white that are blued on this Luger. Including... Firing pin; firing pin spring guide; trigger plate pin; safety sear block bar; toggle recoil link; it's pin...

I've tried to light this so that the metal's grain is visible, and tried to give a good rendition of the actual finish condition. These are not retouched, and were photographed using indirect soft daylight balanced florescent lights used for video production.

I've got higher resolution photos (4x) should more detail be needed.

mrerick · 03-20-2012, 04:00 PM

Additional Photos...

mrerick · 03-20-2012, 04:05 PM

More...

mrerick · 03-20-2012, 04:09 PM

A few more...

Norme · 03-20-2012, 04:14 PM

Hi Marc, It looks good to me. I think it was assembled from parts anytime between 1942 and the end of hostilities, and that all the components were thrown in the bluing tank, regardless. Remember, Mauser was still assembling Lugers from parts after the war, when the factory was under French control. Regards, Norm
P.S. Nice photos.

mrerick · 03-20-2012, 04:20 PM

Alvin, The rust blued Mauser Lugers have the front of the muzzle in the white, but they were blued on these salt blued pistols...

Norm, the combination of high condition, proper number die stamps, out of sequence toggle train and odd bluing made me wonder if it could have been one of those done late war (after Mauser conversion to the P-38) or when in French control. Also possibly one of those "made" for returning GIs at Oberndorf. That could also explain why someone wanted to "improve" the appearance of new parts.

I'll certainly be on the lookout for any background on this period.

Marc

alvin · 03-20-2012, 04:24 PM

Marc, I don't have Mauser Luger in my collection, no hand-on experience on it.

I just looked up Don's book "Mauser Parabellums 1930-1946", page 335 shows a commercial pistol, chamber date 42, s/n 8267y, it has white muzzle.

mrerick · 03-20-2012, 04:38 PM

Oops... Alvin, I stand corrected. I'm away from my books, but checked my 1938, and the muzzle is in the white.

So, that's likely conclusive that the cannon was completely re-blued.

Upon inspection, looks like the trigger plate pin was broken off at some point. The broken off area of the pin is also blued, so the entire part got salt blued as a unit.

This lends more credence to end of war or post war finishing and assembly, since I doubt that the WaAmt would have accepted one with a broken pin.

So... probably post war, new parts, originally blued or re-blued to improve appearance for commercial sale. Note done under French control. Probably done before commercial nitro proofing was re-established after WW-II in West Germany. Brought into the USA before 1968.

Marc

pitsword · 03-20-2012, 04:56 PM

Not to be too easy, I am just a really old pup, in learning. That is a beautiful work of art.

saab-bob · 03-20-2012, 07:10 PM

Marc
Your pics are amazing.Great job.

My understanding is that on the Mausers made under French control,they are stamped with a small star. I have a early P38 "Grey Ghost" that has this stamp on the slide.
Bob

Norme · 03-20-2012, 07:20 PM

Hi Bob, I wasn't suggesting that this gun was made under French control. Those guns,as you said, had a five pointed star preceding the serial number. I carefully said "up to the end of hostilities". I think this gun was assembled for commercial sale after all military contracts had been filled. Regards, Norm

Grantas · 03-21-2012, 04:37 AM

Incredible photo's

John Sabato · 03-21-2012, 08:27 AM

One MIGHTY-FINE looking Mauser... thanks for sharing.

mrerick · 03-21-2012, 11:56 AM

Thanks for the compliments on the photos.

I shoot using a background of black low reflectance cloth called Duvtyne. The stage is a basic thing made up with CPVC plastic pipe and a backing board that curves from vertical to horizontal under the object being photographed.

I'm using a Nikon digital SLR with one of their fixed focal length 60mm Macro lenses. Light is a soft daylight balanced Fluorescent, and it could also be done outside in a shaded indirectly lighted area.

The dust and hair visible in some of the photos is courtesy of my Bearded Collie Dogs.

Marc

whcoyote · 03-21-2012, 09:12 PM

Side plate is correctly numbered - inside and out. The inside of the sideplate on WWII Mausers is one number higher than the first two numbers of the S/N - in this case one higher than the first number as it is a three-digit S/N. So "8" would be correct for the inside. As for authenticity, I can't say - only numbered correctly.

CJS57 · 06-19-2013, 07:04 PM

I have Mauser Banner dated 42 and serial 8300y, a fully matching and commercially proofed gun that I believe was assembled at Mauser before the end of the war with what ever parts were on hand. My gun also has some blued small parts that are normally in the white, muzzle, sideplate lever etc. I also see some almost matte areas but not as much as the subject gun. I see no sign of reblue on my gun either. Except as mentioned by others, I do believe some of the parts were re-blued by Mauser at Mauser before May 1945. Some of the stated opinions are trying to apply pre-war and mid-war rules to these late war commercial guns. In the late period the rules and practices were not so strict especially on commercial guns.

Frank B · 06-20-2013, 06:47 AM

In the last pic by the cartridge ejection port...is that pin not supposed to be silverish white? If it is blued...then not normal? I think that is what mrerick was saying...Also shouldnt there be some aging on the bluing? Or is there a recorded versions...that show this correct? Just trying to increase my knowledge. It sure does look good...could this be a DDR or Berliner Polizei redo with out stampings?

nukem556 · 06-24-2013, 07:21 PM

A very nice Luger, but I'm with Alanint....there's subtle signs of refinish....the" borders" around the frame ears are "soft"....the biggest giveaway I see is the middle toggle piece.... look how sharp the bevel is on the back half of it, and how its smeared and rounded further forward.

03-20-2012, 03:56 PM	#23
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	New Photos Mauser 42 Banner 715g Hi, I'm attaching several new photos of Mauser "42" Banner 715g... In fact, there are several small parts that should be in the white that are blued on this Luger. Including... Firing pin; firing pin spring guide; trigger plate pin; safety sear block bar; toggle recoil link; it's pin... I've tried to light this so that the metal's grain is visible, and tried to give a good rendition of the actual finish condition. These are not retouched, and were photographed using indirect soft daylight balanced florescent lights used for video production. I've got higher resolution photos (4x) should more detail be needed. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-20-2012, 04:00 PM	#24
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Additional Photos 715g Additional Photos... Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-20-2012, 04:05 PM	#25
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Additional Photos 715g More... Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-20-2012, 04:09 PM	#26
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	More and Magazine A few more... Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-20-2012, 04:20 PM	#28
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Alvin, The rust blued Mauser Lugers have the front of the muzzle in the white, but they were blued on these salt blued pistols... Norm, the combination of high condition, proper number die stamps, out of sequence toggle train and odd bluing made me wonder if it could have been one of those done late war (after Mauser conversion to the P-38) or when in French control. Also possibly one of those "made" for returning GIs at Oberndorf. That could also explain why someone wanted to "improve" the appearance of new parts. I'll certainly be on the lookout for any background on this period. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-20-2012, 03:47 PM	#22
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	How is the muzzle? I guess Mauser Luger's muzzle is like their Broom, in white. And a new gun like this, the muzzle should still have fine machining circles visible....

03-20-2012, 04:14 PM	#27
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Marc, It looks good to me. I think it was assembled from parts anytime between 1942 and the end of hostilities, and that all the components were thrown in the bluing tank, regardless. Remember, Mauser was still assembling Lugers from parts after the war, when the factory was under French control. Regards, Norm P.S. Nice photos.

03-20-2012, 04:24 PM	#29
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Marc, I don't have Mauser Luger in my collection, no hand-on experience on it. I just looked up Don's book "Mauser Parabellums 1930-1946", page 335 shows a commercial pistol, chamber date 42, s/n 8267y, it has white muzzle.

03-20-2012, 04:38 PM	#30
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Oops... Alvin, I stand corrected. I'm away from my books, but checked my 1938, and the muzzle is in the white. So, that's likely conclusive that the cannon was completely re-blued. Upon inspection, looks like the trigger plate pin was broken off at some point. The broken off area of the pin is also blued, so the entire part got salt blued as a unit. This lends more credence to end of war or post war finishing and assembly, since I doubt that the WaAmt would have accepted one with a broken pin. So... probably post war, new parts, originally blued or re-blued to improve appearance for commercial sale. Note done under French control. Probably done before commercial nitro proofing was re-established after WW-II in West Germany. Brought into the USA before 1968. Marc Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-20-2012, 04:56 PM	#31
pitsword User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 454 Thanks: 3,884 Thanked 101 Times in 81 Posts	Not to be too easy, I am just a really old pup, in learning. That is a beautiful work of art.

03-20-2012, 07:10 PM	#32
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Marc Your pics are amazing.Great job. My understanding is that on the Mausers made under French control,they are stamped with a small star. I have a early P38 "Grey Ghost" that has this stamp on the slide. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

03-20-2012, 07:20 PM	#33
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Bob, I wasn't suggesting that this gun was made under French control. Those guns,as you said, had a five pointed star preceding the serial number. I carefully said "up to the end of hostilities". I think this gun was assembled for commercial sale after all military contracts had been filled. Regards, Norm

03-21-2012, 04:37 AM	#34
Grantas Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: New Zealand Posts: 53 Thanks: 268 Thanked 22 Times in 19 Posts	Incredible photo's

03-21-2012, 08:27 AM	#35
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	One MIGHTY-FINE looking Mauser... thanks for sharing. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-21-2012, 11:56 AM	#36
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Thanks for the compliments on the photos. I shoot using a background of black low reflectance cloth called Duvtyne. The stage is a basic thing made up with CPVC plastic pipe and a backing board that curves from vertical to horizontal under the object being photographed. I'm using a Nikon digital SLR with one of their fixed focal length 60mm Macro lenses. Light is a soft daylight balanced Fluorescent, and it could also be done outside in a shaded indirectly lighted area. The dust and hair visible in some of the photos is courtesy of my Bearded Collie Dogs. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-21-2012, 09:12 PM	#37
whcoyote User Join Date: May 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	Side plate is correctly numbered - inside and out. The inside of the sideplate on WWII Mausers is one number higher than the first two numbers of the S/N - in this case one higher than the first number as it is a three-digit S/N. So "8" would be correct for the inside. As for authenticity, I can't say - only numbered correctly.

06-19-2013, 07:04 PM	#38
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	I have Mauser Banner dated 42 and serial 8300y, a fully matching and commercially proofed gun that I believe was assembled at Mauser before the end of the war with what ever parts were on hand. My gun also has some blued small parts that are normally in the white, muzzle, sideplate lever etc. I also see some almost matte areas but not as much as the subject gun. I see no sign of reblue on my gun either. Except as mentioned by others, I do believe some of the parts were re-blued by Mauser at Mauser before May 1945. Some of the stated opinions are trying to apply pre-war and mid-war rules to these late war commercial guns. In the late period the rules and practices were not so strict especially on commercial guns.

06-20-2013, 06:47 AM	#39
Frank B User Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Augusta GA, aus Berlin...:) Posts: 78 Thanks: 20 Thanked 30 Times in 12 Posts	In the last pic by the cartridge ejection port...is that pin not supposed to be silverish white? If it is blued...then not normal? I think that is what mrerick was saying...Also shouldnt there be some aging on the bluing? Or is there a recorded versions...that show this correct? Just trying to increase my knowledge. It sure does look good...could this be a DDR or Berliner Polizei redo with out stampings? __________________ "Man muss manchmal in den sauren Apfel beißen"

06-24-2013, 07:21 PM	#40
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	A very nice Luger, but I'm with Alanint....there's subtle signs of refinish....the" borders" around the frame ears are "soft"....the biggest giveaway I see is the middle toggle piece.... look how sharp the bevel is on the back half of it, and how its smeared and rounded further forward.