Luger?? yes I'm a newbie! What is this!

Niblet · 03-21-2010, 04:03 PM

Hi fellas,,Im an avid WWII German collector for several years now
but have never gotten into lugers much so pls excuse my ignorance,,A guy brought this into work to let me look at,,and I'm afraid i dont know exactly what it is,,,it doesnt have your typical wartime luger markings,, it is etched 722 in places,,others are stamped 722 and 22,,,all the #'s seem to match...but what are those wierd proof marks??? it has bakelite grips,,,and an etching inside the grip i can see with a flaslight,,,bore is very clean,,pistol is in very nice shape,,Thanks in advance,,,
oh yeah what is a typical ballpark value on this???
Tim

Niblet · 03-21-2010, 04:05 PM

again,,I appriciate the help

alanint · 03-21-2010, 04:28 PM

This is a Russian capture Luger that has had various markings either "X" ed out or ground down. Then it had various parts "force matched" to make it a matching gun. The grips are classic russian rework grips.
I am not familiar with some of the larger eagle stamps but another forum member will fill these in.

sheepherder · 03-21-2010, 04:36 PM

Do you have a pic of the toggle, showing any graphic/inscription??? The sideplate looks like an Erfurt...if the toggle is too, then it may be an excellent buy...at a reasonable price, even if it is a Russian or VOPO rework...

Niblet · 03-21-2010, 04:50 PM

Super guys,,thanks for the replys heres some more pics,,is it worth the 850 he wants for it??? Maybe its just a good shooter huh?

lugerholsterrepair · 03-21-2010, 05:33 PM

$850 is way over what these are worth in my opinion. For just a few dollars more you can buy a really decent Luger.
Even an asking price of $650 would be pushing it for me..It's a frankenstein mix of parts and might not even shoot.

Take a look at this one in the for sale section on this Forum.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=23775

Jerry Burney

Edward Tinker · 03-21-2010, 05:34 PM

I think $850 is a bit high for a shooter, even if a byf toggle.

I have had several lugers recently, fully matching minus the magazine and have sold them for $1050-$1200

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 03-22-2010, 03:34 AM

This is an interesting gun on its own. It appears to have been "made up" by the Deutsche Volkspolizei (East German Police) of parts from a number of different Lugers--an Erfurt sideplate, Mauser center toggle, DWM or Mauser frame (it is difficult to tell).

The eagle/crown/U on the left frame and receiver are inspection marks from the E. German State Proof House at Suhl, indicating that intensive modification to the gun (possibly the build-up) has been inspected and passed. The crown/N on the barrel and center toggle certify that the gun has passed power-proof in this configuration. It would be useful to know if the breechblock and rear toggle have the c/N stamp as well. The barrel, having the c/N proof and no other marks, is an East German replacement.

A rework done under thet auspices of the DVP would have a Police inspector's mark of a shield with a letter, surrounded by a starburst. These were often obliterated before export to U.S. dealers as surplus, to disguise the country of origin. If this gun does not have the mark, this suggests that the rebuild was performed before the gun went into DVP service.

The machining marks on the receiver extension rails make me want to see clear, detailed pictures of the receiver and rails--actually, the entire rest of the gun.

While DVP guns are not conventionally considered highly collectible, they do have their own place in Luger history and this is a particularly interesting example. There is no established market for a gun like this, and its value (other than as a shooting commodity) is only going to be determined by what some interested collector will pay for it when the owner needs/wants to sell.

--Dwight

Jasta2 · 03-22-2010, 08:27 AM

Dwight,

Thank you for giving a great history to this post WW2 in service Luger. True, it is not matching in the true since of the word, but it was truly a 'in service' issued post WW2 era Luger reworked by some offical armory and forced matched. I take any WW2 era or pre WW2 era Luger that had parts replaced by an armory, then numbered to match would be thought of as a correctly matching Luger only done with new or left over unmarked parts vs marked parts from used Lugers installed and rather 'crudely' marked to match. Thanks again for pointing out the many details on this era of Lugers.
Bill
Then again, replacing a couple of parts on an otherwise matching Luger is not what maybe these post WW2 reworked Lugers are. Many look to be built from just a bunch of disassambled Luger parts lumped together and matched with maybe no real starting point outside the bare frame.

Ron Smith · 03-22-2010, 09:07 AM

The barrel and receiver appear to be of new East German production. The East Germans produced 100 complete new Lugers in 1953 on captured equipment.

Here is a beautiful and rare example from Mark Castel's collection. The receiver exhibits the same characteristics as the one posted.

http://www.p38guns.com/EGLugerRig.htm

As Dwight states, VOPOs are becoming collectable in their own catagory. Prices range from $700 to over $1000 for nice and / or unusual examples. This one would fall in the "unusual" catagory IMO.

Ron

Niblet · 03-23-2010, 09:02 AM

Just wanted to take a moment and say thanks to all who helped on ID'ing this Luger,, it wasnt a wartime complete one as I wanted but will fit the bill for now,,
Tim

tumtatty · 03-23-2010, 01:20 PM

HI Tim,

My name is Tim as well and I live in Kernersville!
I have a 1920 commercial Luger that I could show you if you haven't purchased already. Perhaps we could go shooting sometime!

03-21-2010, 04:03 PM	#1
Niblet User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Greensboro,NC Posts: 8 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger?? yes I'm a newbie! What is this! Hi fellas,,Im an avid WWII German collector for several years now but have never gotten into lugers much so pls excuse my ignorance,,A guy brought this into work to let me look at,,and I'm afraid i dont know exactly what it is,,,it doesnt have your typical wartime luger markings,, it is etched 722 in places,,others are stamped 722 and 22,,,all the #'s seem to match...but what are those wierd proof marks??? it has bakelite grips,,,and an etching inside the grip i can see with a flaslight,,,bore is very clean,,pistol is in very nice shape,,Thanks in advance,,, oh yeah what is a typical ballpark value on this??? Tim Attached Thumbnails

03-21-2010, 04:05 PM	#2
Niblet User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Greensboro,NC Posts: 8 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	again,,I appriciate the help Attached Thumbnails

03-21-2010, 04:50 PM	#5
Niblet User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Greensboro,NC Posts: 8 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Super guys,,thanks for the replys heres some more pics,,is it worth the 850 he wants for it??? Maybe its just a good shooter huh? Attached Thumbnails

03-21-2010, 05:33 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	$850 is way over what these are worth in my opinion. For just a few dollars more you can buy a really decent Luger. Even an asking price of $650 would be pushing it for me..It's a frankenstein mix of parts and might not even shoot. Take a look at this one in the for sale section on this Forum. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=23775 Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-21-2010, 05:34 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	I think $850 is a bit high for a shooter, even if a byf toggle. I have had several lugers recently, fully matching minus the magazine and have sold them for $1050-$1200 Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-21-2010, 04:28 PM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	This is a Russian capture Luger that has had various markings either "X" ed out or ground down. Then it had various parts "force matched" to make it a matching gun. The grips are classic russian rework grips. I am not familiar with some of the larger eagle stamps but another forum member will fill these in.

03-21-2010, 04:36 PM	#4
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,195 Thanks: 1,413 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	Do you have a pic of the toggle, showing any graphic/inscription??? The sideplate looks like an Erfurt...if the toggle is too, then it may be an excellent buy...at a reasonable price, even if it is a Russian or VOPO rework...

03-22-2010, 03:34 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	This is an interesting gun on its own. It appears to have been "made up" by the Deutsche Volkspolizei (East German Police) of parts from a number of different Lugers--an Erfurt sideplate, Mauser center toggle, DWM or Mauser frame (it is difficult to tell). The eagle/crown/U on the left frame and receiver are inspection marks from the E. German State Proof House at Suhl, indicating that intensive modification to the gun (possibly the build-up) has been inspected and passed. The crown/N on the barrel and center toggle certify that the gun has passed power-proof in this configuration. It would be useful to know if the breechblock and rear toggle have the c/N stamp as well. The barrel, having the c/N proof and no other marks, is an East German replacement. A rework done under thet auspices of the DVP would have a Police inspector's mark of a shield with a letter, surrounded by a starburst. These were often obliterated before export to U.S. dealers as surplus, to disguise the country of origin. If this gun does not have the mark, this suggests that the rebuild was performed before the gun went into DVP service. The machining marks on the receiver extension rails make me want to see clear, detailed pictures of the receiver and rails--actually, the entire rest of the gun. While DVP guns are not conventionally considered highly collectible, they do have their own place in Luger history and this is a particularly interesting example. There is no established market for a gun like this, and its value (other than as a shooting commodity) is only going to be determined by what some interested collector will pay for it when the owner needs/wants to sell. --Dwight

03-22-2010, 08:27 AM	#9
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Dwight, Thank you for giving a great history to this post WW2 in service Luger. True, it is not matching in the true since of the word, but it was truly a 'in service' issued post WW2 era Luger reworked by some offical armory and forced matched. I take any WW2 era or pre WW2 era Luger that had parts replaced by an armory, then numbered to match would be thought of as a correctly matching Luger only done with new or left over unmarked parts vs marked parts from used Lugers installed and rather 'crudely' marked to match. Thanks again for pointing out the many details on this era of Lugers. Bill Then again, replacing a couple of parts on an otherwise matching Luger is not what maybe these post WW2 reworked Lugers are. Many look to be built from just a bunch of disassambled Luger parts lumped together and matched with maybe no real starting point outside the bare frame.

03-22-2010, 09:07 AM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	The barrel and receiver appear to be of new East German production. The East Germans produced 100 complete new Lugers in 1953 on captured equipment. Here is a beautiful and rare example from Mark Castel's collection. The receiver exhibits the same characteristics as the one posted. http://www.p38guns.com/EGLugerRig.htm As Dwight states, VOPOs are becoming collectable in their own catagory. Prices range from $700 to over $1000 for nice and / or unusual examples. This one would fall in the "unusual" catagory IMO. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-23-2010, 09:02 AM	#11
Niblet User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Greensboro,NC Posts: 8 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just wanted to take a moment and say thanks to all who helped on ID'ing this Luger,, it wasnt a wartime complete one as I wanted but will fit the bill for now,, Tim

03-23-2010, 01:20 PM	#12
tumtatty User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 28 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	HI Tim, My name is Tim as well and I live in Kernersville! I have a 1920 commercial Luger that I could show you if you haven't purchased already. Perhaps we could go shooting sometime!