1917 DWM Luger, Artillery style xx62e

[Logante]

I realize that what I just picked up might be a reproduction rig with a "1917 DWM" Luger. Finish is a little rough, but it has not been refinished. The magazine body is a silver color with a wooden bottom marked Germany. The firearm is a little loose compared to the other (S/42) Luger I own, and needs to be checked out before I attempt to shoot it.

1917 DWM xx62 suffix:e matching parts except sight base ( [L (\) 24] , can only be seen with sight set up for long distance)

My questions are mainly about the stock and holster that came with it. I have not attached it or really have had much interest in the set-up believing the dealer, that it was just a curiosity as it would create a SBR without the paperwork if attached to the gun (The holster and shoulder board being reproduction). What proof marks need to be present, and does the stock need to be an original to attach to the pistol.

[DavidJayUden]

If you have an Artillery model Luger and an artillery stock, original or accurate repro., then you are OK. Where you can run into trouble is mating the arty. stock to a Navy, or 4" Luger, then you have the SBR. And if you sell off the artillery Luger but keep the stock around and also have in your posession non-artillery Lugers, then you have also made a target of yourself.
I don't know how aggressively they will prosecute (persecute) you for minor indiscretions, but believe me when I say that you do not want to find out. Cases are generally selected for prosecution on the basis of winability, not intent or seriousness or the afront to social order of the crime.
So when in doubt, don't.
But DO get us those pictures...
dju

[Logante]

Here is a pic of the left side of the gun and the proofmarks of the gun

[Edward Tinker]

it is perfectly legal and NOT an issue to own a artillery stock without an artillery!

it is only illegal to put one onto a non-acceptable luger i.e. a 4 inch luger / and even though it is not legal, there are exceptions and the average person would not know

It is legal to attach a navy stock to a navy / an artillery stock to a artillery / an Ideal stock to a 1900 and a few more exceptions.

TOTALLY legal to own a stock and no gun to go with it - heck, you can buy a short AR-15 barrel, putting it onto a AR15 and making it a Car-15 is what is illegal.

Ed

[DavidJayUden]

Ed:
I respectfully disagree. Back in the day of the auto sears for the AR15, if you had one auto sear (or the bolt/carrier/trigger parts for the M16) AND you also had in your possession an AR15, it was "slap the cuffs on" time. The parts did not have to be on the gun.
So, my rationale that owning an artillery stock, not owning a pistol that it is legal on, would be as heinous in the eyes of the BATF.
It's probably academic, but that is one group that I sincerely hope to never do business with.
dju

[JTD]

Dave, two totally diferent things here. Class 3 sear /unregistered machine gun compared to antique original parts/ accesories. This issue is so old already, John

[Edward Tinker]

David, this same thinking is why many folks from years ago had stock lugs ground off.

There are laws about owning class III items, there are NO regulations or laws that state it is illegal to OWN a stock.

[Logante]

Thank you guys for answering my post, but the issue is not clear for me. I need to know about the reproduction aspect of this. I believe it to be an artillery luger, but would it be considered a SBR if a reproduction stock (versus original) were attached. One was included but I was informed not to attach it as it would make it an illegal SBR.

I realize that attaching an original would be perfectly legal, but I have a reproduction rig for it (like stated I was instructed to attach it would be unregistered SBR due to the stock being new). I will trash it and look for an original if thats what it takes, as I need no ATF issues.

The issue is easy I live in Michigan, we have no SBR's allowed. The only exemption would be a luger, hi-power or other C&R that is not considered a SBR due to it being exempt.

[Edward Tinker]

As long as the reproduction is an artillery one, it is perfectly legal

[tx_oil]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Ed:
I respectfully disagree. Back in the day of the auto sears for the AR15, if you had one auto sear (or the bolt/carrier/trigger parts for the M16) AND you also had in your possession an AR15, it was "slap the cuffs on" time. The parts did not have to be on the gun.
So, my rationale that owning an artillery stock, not owning a pistol that it is legal on, would be as heinous in the eyes of the BATF.
It's probably academic, but that is one group that I sincerely hope to never do business with.
dju

The BATFE defines this as 'constructive intent', i.e, owning all the parts necessary to 'construct' a class III item. This is a completely different issue from owning a stock. Be aware, however, that in the eyes of the BATFE, an 18" shoelace is also considered a 'machine gun' and is prohibited.. because said shoelace can be used to bumpfire a semi-auto. Logic flies out the wndow when the alphabet boys get involved...

[DavidJayUden]

The BATFE defines this as 'constructive intent', i.e, owning all the parts necessary to 'construct' a class III item. This is a completely different issue from owning a stock.

I agree that owning an artillery stock is no crime. But owning a stock, and having it with, but not on, a non-artillery Luger COULD be, using the BATF rationale, a crime. And BATF rationale has NEVER been confused with common sense.

Dave, two totally diferent things here. Class 3 sear /unregistered machine gun compared to antique original parts/ accesories. This issue is so old already, John

And JTD, yes this issue is so old already, however short barreled rifles, short shotguns, supressors, etc. are viewed with the same scrutiny and suspicion under the GCA of 1933 as machine guns.

I will now back away from this thread, not because I feel less strongly about the points that I have tried to make, but because I simply have no skin in this game.
Carry on!
dju

[Ron Wood]

Let me see if I can "horsey-duckie" this situation.
1) You can own as many stocks as you wish if you have no guns to which they may be attached.
2) You may own any original or close copy reproduction stock if you have a corresponding Luger to go with it. This is a one for one basis, i.e. you can't own 3 LP08 stocks with only one LP08 to go with them if you own other short barreled Lugers to which the extra two stocks could be affixed. That is why I got rid of my repro Navy stock when I acquired an original since I own only one Navy Luger. I wouldn't worry too much about this one for one restriction...I doubt that it would be too much of an issue as long as you owned at least one legitimate corresponding Luger. Collectors tend to accumulate "spares" or trading material so there may be some leeway on this issue.
3) You may not own any stocks for which you have no corresponding model Lugers, but you do own short barreled Lugers. Note that this an important distinction and negates the assertion that "it is perfectly legal and NOT an issue to own a artillery stock without an artillery".

The "constructive intent" issue may not be rigidly enforced but it is always there and can be used against anyone who is in violation of the above 3 conditions.

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, where did you get this information?

There is nothing in the BATF regulations that says that stocks are considered illegal to own?

They simply state that certain stocks are legal with certain lugers.

[Edward Tinker]

In fact, reading the regulations, it is confusing, surprise, surprise;

Luger, Artillery model, pistols having chamber dates of 1914 through 1918 or 1920, having
German Weimar Navy markings consisting of the letter M over an anchor and a German
Navy property number accompanied by original Artillery Luger flat board stocks, bearing
German Weimar Navy markings of the letter M over an anchor with or without Navy
property numbers.

They mix the artillery and the navy into the same paragraph without separating them...

Luger, the 1920 Commercial Artillery model, pistols as mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having undated chambers, commercial proofmarks, and bearing the inscription Germany or Made in Germany on the receiver and accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks.

Luger, DWM Pistol, model 1900, 1902, or 1906, in 7.65 Luger or 9mm parabellum cal., having the
American Eagle chamber crest, and barrel lengths of either 4" or 4-3/4", with original detachable Ideal shoulder stocks and Ideal frame grips.

DWM Luger, Original models 1904, 1906, 1908, 1914, and 1920. Naval pistols in 9mm
parabellum or 7.65mm cal., in both the Commercial and Naval military varieties; in both
altered and unaltered barrel lengths in the model 1904 and in both altered and unaltered
safety markings in the model 1906; with original board-type detachable shoulder stocks
bearing brass or iron discs, with or without markings, or, if without brass or iron discs,
being of the Navy flat board-type. This exemption applies only to the listed Naval Luger
pistols if mated to the Naval Luger stock and will not apply if the Naval Luger pistol is
mated to the Artillery stock. The Naval stock has an overall dimension of 12-3/4", a rear
width of 4-5/8", a front width of 1-1/2", a rear thickness of 9/16", and a front thickness of
l-3/16".

Luger, DWM Stoeger model 1920 and 1923, semiautomatic pistols in 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum
cal., in barrel lengths of 8, 10, 12, and 12-1/2", having either American Eagle chamber crests
and/or Stoeger frame and/or upper receiver marks, having either standard, Navy or artillery
rear sights, having extractors marked either "Loaded" or "Geladen" and having frame safety
markings of either "Gesichert" or "Safe," together w/original commercial flat board stocks
of the artillery type, which bear no S/Ns or military proof marks; may include a "Germany"
marking.

Luger, DWM Pistol-Carbine, model 1920, 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum cal., with accompanying
original commercial type shoulder stock, with or without forearm piece, having barrel
lengths of 11-3/4" to less than 16".

Luger, German model 1914, Artillery model pistol, mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having chambers dated
1914 –1918, bearing Imperial German military proofmarks & accompanied by original,
German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks.

Luger, model 1902, Pistol-Carbine, 7.65mm Luger with original commercial type shoulder stock and
forearm and 11-3/4" barrel.

Luger, Persian (Iranian) Artillery model, pistols, as mfd. by Mauser prior to 1945, accompanied by the
original artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stock, bearing a S/N in Farsi characters
stamped into the wood on the left side.

Luger, semiautomatic pistol, certain variations with Benke-Thiemann folding shoulder stock.

These are slightly different than LAST time I looked, personally, I think the question should be asked on whether stocks themselves are illegal. ?

[Edward Tinker]

and then this....

M24) If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does
this constitute possession of an NFA firearm?
Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the
overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However,
certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser
"Broomhandles" and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the
NFA as collectors' items.
[26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 479.11]

[Ron Wood]

Ed,
The regulation states "exemptions" and they all refer to stocks that have been removed from the purview of the NFA because they are associated with their respective model Lugers. For example look at the statement "This exemption applies only to the listed Naval Luger pistols if mated to the Naval Luger stock and will not apply if the Naval Luger pistol is mated to the Artillery stock". This one instance in particular that clearly states the intentions of the exemptions. You have to have the proper Luger to match up with the proper stock. If you have a stock and do not have the corresponding Luger to go with it, it is not exempt and therefore illegal.
So I stand by my statement that owing a Luger stock for which you do not have the proper corresponding model Luger, and you also own short barreled Luger(s) or other models of Lugers for which the stock is not correct, you have no exemption. Therefore the stock is illegal to own because it demonstrates "constructive intent" to create a SBR regardless of whether you ever attach it to one of the short barreled Lugers.

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Ed,
The regulation states "exemptions" and they all refer to stocks that have been removed from the purview of the NFA because they are associated with their respective model Lugers. For example look at the statement "This exemption applies only to the listed Naval Luger pistols if mated to the Naval Luger stock and will not apply if the Naval Luger pistol is mated to the Artillery stock". This one instance in particular that clearly states the intentions of the exemptions. You have to have the proper Luger to match up with the proper stock. If you have a stock and do not have the corresponding Luger to go with it, it is not exempt and therefore illegal.
So I stand by my statement that owing a Luger stock for which you do not have the proper corresponding model Luger, and you also own short barreled Luger(s) or other models of Lugers for which the stock is not correct, you have no exemption. Therefore the stock is illegal to own because it demonstrates "constructive intent" to create a SBR regardless of whether you ever attach it to one of the short barreled Lugers.

This was always my understanding, but I have been wrong many times before.

[Ron Wood]

I probably should add a nuance of explanation to my former statement. It is not the owning of a stock by itself that is illegal, it is the possession of a stock without having a correct corresponding Luger if you also own any Luger(s) for which the stock is not correct. It is the improper combination of stock and gun that is illegal, not the stock per se. You have to have a gun that is correct for the stock to qualify for the exemption if you own other Lugers that do not qualify…period.

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, sorry, I agree you have to have the correct stock to put on the correct Luger, but saying I can't have a navy stock because I don't own a navy is weird to me.

[Ron Wood]

Ed,
It is weird to me too, but if you don't have a Navy and you do have another Luger with a stock lug you have the ingredients for a SBR going strictly by BATFE rules. It seems to me that a dealer wouldn't be subject to this restriction but I don't know for sure. Us plain old collectors probably don't have any way around the rules if the feds want to get picky. Reality bites sometimes.